What China needs next in the PUP

Clock Tower’s Springald is the best anti-siege out there, the Chinese Bombard should be superior to other Bombards and more effective against buildings (and large targets) and it delivers.

I have always agreed to a 20-25% discount on Dynasty Landmarks.

The unit will only need a readjustment like the mangonel did and will already be ideal for various situations in the game.

China doesn’t have such a bad winning percentage. There are a lot of main China in this forum either they stand out and I don’t want them to be like the ancient Mongols, Delhi or something more broken than France.

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And so wrong.

Clockwork can only produce at rate of 1x which is tied to location of clockwork tower which actually results to lower rate of reinforcing than 1x production rate. If opponent goes 2x siege workshop in frontlines they’re hard countering chinese clockwork siege. And this fact seems to escape your mind and developers mind.

Chinese springalds are inferior to mongol and rus springalds which got better range and siege war range is most important thing. This results culverins, rus / mongol springalds automatically hard countering chinese siege and well english got trebs which are even more superior to this because you won’t be able to get close to them till they smash bombards or you have to micro them away.

Same applies to grenadiers. Range is everything for unit like grenadier. Its not as important for handcannoners because they shoot much faster but grenadiers attack so slowly that even when you get close to archers u have already lost some of them and now that range is even worse to it which results even greater losses followed by the fact that they considerable amount of less dmg

I don’t care about plastic league rankings. This screenshot tells everything. China once again bottom tier in winrates AND 2nd worst in pickrate. All of this is VERY clear indicator that china is not in good place and IF BBQ was so broken like many in here forums claim it to be we would see much higher winrate for china like we saw for mongols peaking around 60% at one point, but we don’t?

I got 1900 games as china and I have never played any other civ. I don’t care about grenadiers, BBQ rush etc, but I do recognize the spot that china has been as civ for months. It has something strong going for them then it gets completely butchered to ■■■■ tier and trend follows. Once pup changes go live there is no viability for china other than spamming BBQ because its only strength they have left.

There is not single unique tech to support universal units outside of next patch for handcannoneers which will still be worse than rus variant and not that different from other civs. Yes 1.5 tile is nice but they shoot much faster rate than grenadiers that benefit more from range than hand cannoneers so again bad trade off.

If landmarks are ■■■■, unique units are ■■■■, unique buildings borderline ■■■■ then the 2nd landmark should be free or 90% discount. 20-25% doesn’t cut it anymore. For song it would be fine but for anything later on needs literally -90% discount to make it worth.

Next patch there is no reason to go for anything else than song. This is chinese meta in next patch: IA opening with 0 IO as fast as possible and spam IO’s from IA then go for song dynasty. Either then fast castle or boom. Fast castle = spam lancers and be basically worst civ doing so. Boom = just die afterwards. Chinese viability and pickrate will plummet. We will see them dropping to sub 45% winrate followed by 1-4% drop in pickrate


China feudal isn’t bad, not exceptionnal, but not bad. IO with +20%, +150% production boost, gold from taxes, ZGN that is very strong. They have villages and barbacan that give a really good defence (from example vs french knigth).
Early Castle is decent with fast NOB.

But after, they really fall behind others civs. It’s only on Ming with the strong (too) grenadiers + bombards that they can come back.

The PUP changes will just make yuan and Ming useless. You just go with spirit way, go for palace guard/handcannon, a few ZGN (to make them die…), and that’s all. Fire lancers are useless, and grenadiers won’t worth yuan + ming cost.

And there will be no reason to play China at all. If you want something that looks like just play Delhi, they have a similar feudal (a bit less eco, but more pressure from sacred site), the best Castle Age of the game, and they will get a good imperial this time…

So i don’t know if it’s the real plan, to delete china from the game but that’s what they proposing right now.

The joke is they try to buff the best civs of the game, while nerfing the weakest… Dunno if they really played once their own game, probably not…

While you will obviously be able to find high level players with success in feudal with china the majority of players that use china can’t win between 10min and 30min games which is all of feudal up to early Imperial. Pick whatever ranking you want and you’ll see the exact same trend. Heck pick top ranking china main players and you’ll see the exact same win rate swing pattern in around the 10 to 30 min windows!! At best you could blame meta playstyle but then you have to scratch your head on why even china mains suffer from the same win rate pattern over time? Wouldn’t they have found an optimal way(s) to play the civ?

Song dynasty 2 TC takes too long to pay off and leaves you playing defense in a game where harrasment and timings are key. Song dynasty zhuge nu all in is too easily countered by fast castle and feudal knights and feudal maa…

We’ll see if this imperial academy IO thing can jump start chinese feudal early castle play?

Alternatively they could make the zhuge nu a tang dynasty unit and increase the cost by 10 food. This would rapidly increase zhuge nu all in Waaaaay before fast castle AND would beat out knights archer since you’d easily out mass with superivising your spear+zhuge and just macro your zhuge to delete enemy archers.


Zhuge nu is meme and trap unit. Its ■■■■. Anyone that claims differently has very weird power fantasy of zhuge nu doing something. Yes it deals MORE dmg than normal archer IF target stand still and doesn’t kite and yes it deals more dmg to armored which again is irrelevant. 1 Zhuge nu does 3dmg to knight/MAA. Knight has 190HP and to kill one knight zhuge nu needs to land 63.3 shots.

If you make 10 zhuge nu’s you only need to shoot knight +10X congratz for being efficient of killing one knight. Moment there is 20 knights you need literally 100pop zhuge nu to deal with them and dont start with spears. Spears are ■■■■ and can only be used to zone knights out. Also you need essentially close to 3x number of spears to fight knights well so not worth… Also 2 resource unit is much better than 3 resource unit. Meaning you generate gold + supervise gold + food and you can fast castle into lancers and produce them instead of splitting your villagers all around to different resources and lose the value of supervision.

China feudal is something that player wants to throw out of window and get rid off. Its bad. Sure you can turtle all you want and try boom and maybe you survive. But whats the point? You’re set to idle at your little corner of map when opponent has full map control and all the resources on the map? Feudal is ■■■■ and period.

1 NOB or even 2 is just meme especially on maps that are more open on blackforest sure do them and I would roll over you with lancers. If you want fast castle then go for lancers and relic control / denying and get song or 2nd tc after that.

That I do completely agree with you. No point of making any unique units other than sacrificial pawns.

Nah PG is not worth either. Lancer + Handcannoneer especially on TG where you can print gold and food like crazy. But then you meet 120pop french knight army + rus with 80 pop streltsy and 40 pop siege that just rolls over you because you lose knight fight, you lose gunpowder fight and then you die. Basically dead set on being handicapped.

Not that my playstyle changes that much I still continue to stomp ppl with fast castle into lancers same way and I might actually mix song now with because of IA changes but other than that no point even doing anything that china is supposed to be. At least no one can complain when I go IP always and skip clockwork till imp. Now I can just say “worst siege in game not gonna waste resources on ■■■■”


Post your gamer name @BdelloidBore5 … i dont trust you play 1v1… and if you do? I’m extremely doubtful your win rate over time pattern with china differs from the norm. Prove me wrong? No 2v2 doesnt count thats a different game than 1v1.

I think I have said it more than enough that I solely play 2v2 and not 1v1. And never claimed I was playing 1v1?. Im Ninfu nice to meet you. Yes 1v1 is quite different, but yet certain things apply in there and in 2v2. In certain sense its much harder to defend certain things with random allies and 1 player is only 25% of the pieces in game.

In 1v1 you only have to worry about what 1 opponent is doing, meanwhile in 2v2 you have to understand patterns of certain civs and what kind of comps they go for it. Its much more efficient for 2 player mass perfect army than its in 1v1 where you need to split your production through multiple different buildings.

For example french / english they already counter horsemen, archers and spears. So whats the answer? Better tech into fast castle. And cavalry rules them all because mobility is far more important in TG than its in 1v1.

Naw 2v2 is too different from 1v1.

If you couod rush feudal sub 4min and start immediately spamming zhuge nu even at the 3 resource requirement it would be GG go next for all civs except French english and maybe mongols. Legit 2, yes 2 zhuge nu plus your scouts would obliterate enemy scouts and villagers trying to deny a TR that early in the game (5min 6min mark). Then if for whatever reason they let you research +1 range before they get armor, sheesh…

Put back to reality, fast song is about 5min 20s? Something like that? So you cant hope to mass even from 2 archer ranges with double IO supervision a formidable mass THAT late in feudal without enemy hitting a fc timing by the time you reach his base…

It would be a completely different story vs most civ if china had instant access to zhuge nu at a reasonable price.

Im not sure what we’re talking about anymore? I have said zhuge nu is ■■■■ xD I only did the math how much it takes for zhuge nu to kill knight nothing else.

I usually hit castle in 7-8 min mark and thats with poking included from opponent, but this also includes prof scout because in 2v2 its pretty easy to sneak couple of deer camp under protection making things safer.

Yes I do agree if zhuge nu was available moment of hitting feudal it would be much more useful. If I get TR and have to go archery range I wont bother with song dynasty. Just getting few archers out is more than enough.

Even if you manage somehow to mass enough zhuge nu to be relevant then they get kited by archers and lose like 33-66% of their dmg

What calculations are you going to make of the Zhuge Nu against the knight?

Armored units counter Zhuge Nu. With the new meta, Zhuge Nu will take out the battering ram faster (3 bursts and less battering hp) and will have a better boom with IOs and barns.

Chino can get a second siege workshop, his rings won’t fall off for that.

China is a civilization of gunpowder, therefore, it is the bombardment, the grenadier and the manual artillerymen that should highlight the late.

Wouldn’t english villager tower rush be unstoppable then? sure villagers do a lot less DPS but its easier to mass them and they build the towers themselves and then get its buff. I agree with you that giving zhuge nu as they are right now would be strong but i don’t think it would be unfairly strong, maybe a little nerf like more training time would make it more reasonable.


While 2 TCs Song are as efficient as 3 normal TCs, it costs approximately 3 normal TCs => basically 3 TCs play. You can only profit from the 3rd Song TC onwards, which costs the equivalent of 4TCs for other civs. Realistically speaking, who’s buying 4TCs unless in a team game?

Nobody says CN Bombard is balanced at least from me, but almost deleting their power, along with other nerfs to gunpowder and sieges are also clearly not balanced for CN neither? It might deserve nerfs but it’s definitely over-nerfed just like Grenadiers in this patch


The bombard in GENERAL got nerfed! Then additionally they removed the “culverin” effect from the Chinese bombard, THAT’S IT! Heck they even buffed the reload from 20% to 33%. You can think/feel “hey that’s going to far?”; But the reality is Imperial age has been heavily focused on siege. Making them exceptionally vulnerable MAY open other Imperial gameplay EVEN from the OLD king of siege China.

Again we failing to understand something?? only 29% of Chinese games makes it past the 30min mark??? Legit at 30min you could hit imp, but if we follow the win rate over time charts is APPEARS that mid iMP potentially ming doesn’t come into play until the 35min+ game; So Chinese REAL PROBLEMS??? isn’t that they grenadiers got mega nerfed NOR bombard got relegated; their MAIN issue is they can’t win at any ranking from the 10 to 30min mark above 43%??


What do you expect from a civ thats either doing Barbican + Tower rush or 2 TC Song and hope to somehow survive till lategame?

Because those are the 2 playstyles Chinese has in competitive play. After multiple rounds of earlygame nerfs (+25 wood villages, -50 starting wood due to having to build a mining camp for IO gold cost) and without access to economic bonuses like other civs Chinese doesn’t threaten anyone.

They don’t even have a strong age III because Nest of Bees are not better than Mangonels. HRE used to go fast age III when regnitz was overpowered, other civs were going age III for Mangonels.

Chinese needs changes to Landmarks like allowing the Imperial Palace to unlock +30 HP on Palace Guards to have more power in Age III and to threaten other civs before the 30 minute mark.

If a civ only has 2 playstyles + is only playable on few maps then something needs to change.

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I play dynastless china with 1TC and I can tell you rn its not good. Yes I got like 65% winrate this is in 2v2 where things are bit different from 1v1, but same issue remains. Castle offers nothing substantial over other civs. Every civ got more in castle so even if you rush to castle, you’re playing inferior tech once opponent reaches castle and you can’t just walk to their base and kill them with few units once you reach castle so if they were booming and manage to not take much dmg from the aggression it just sets you behind.

I have played against ppl who do this with other civs. Exact same and why they do it? Because fast castle into knights is so superior to anything else and there is very little that can be done to fight back.

French = insta win with this tactic
Mongol = just shows up with 4-6 spears and just throws few towers near you out of disrespect and hits same castle timing as you and pumps units like crazy with khan giving 50% attack speed buff for 5 seconds which essentially gives them free win off any engagement
Abbasid = throws 2nd tc and starts throwing knights at u with fast castle because 50 food = 2 villager is better than 13second villager training and if they get in situation where they might lose cavalry fight they add few camel raiders and game over.
English = Yeah 2nd tc at castle age and followed by one of the best defensive knights in game so breaking them is impossible. Try booming to back it up and you get overwhelmed by knights
HRE = hits castle faster and gets relics faster than you so they either overwhelm you with knights or MAA which is only infantry that can actually trade well enough to fight against heavy cavalry.
Delhi = hit and miss. They insta kill you if you have to fight against elephants but if you can go around and force them to chase you then you got chance of winning.


All this fast castle gameplay IMO is undesirable. We need more dark and feudal gameplay.

Also Early knights should be nerfed by 20 hp and early maa should be nerfed by 10 hp. Or guve us proper counter units in fedual?

Castle age up build time and abbasid que time for castle age should build in 5 mins (2min 30s for china) and 4min 10s for abbasid.

This would force fast castle timings to go from 8min castles to 11 or 12 min fast castles which is extremely more risky vs a feudal all in and feudal booms. The point is to remove the clear optimal-ness of fast castle.

For example mid castle age unit and eco can hang with an early imp units and eco. This is not the case generally with feudal vs castle!! Unless you’re french or Rus and sometimes English, your feudal army will never hang for any decent amount of time vs castle units; that’s the problem.

Alternatively to all i suggested with the timings they can nerf the power scaling of all units from castle up such that the transition is NOT as severe.

Example early knights go from 170hp (my nerf) to 200hp and keep the 3 and 3 base armor.
Likewise maa go from 110hp (my nerf) to 135hp and keep their 3 and 3 base armor.
PG would keep the 3 and 3 base armor so bc of their speed their hp would be nerfed even further than standard maa down to 130 hp.

All in all there is so many options available in this game in starting dark age but most go unused except niche situations mainly bc fast castle is TOO optimal.

China needs the ability to switch between dynasties but so its not an OP issue put the switching ability on a 5min cd!!! Also xhina ahould retain a weaker version of dynasties unlocked but aren’t currently active.

So say you’re unlocked all 4 dynasties and you’re curently on ming dynasty. You should gain the full 10% hp effect BUT also you should also have 15% extra LOS on scouts due to tang, 15% villager build speed due to song, and 9% movement speed due to yuan. At any time you switch the dynasty, the one picked gets full effecrs implemented and all the rest that have been unlocked give the l secondary buffs.

Reducing 20hp from knights won’t make any difference. It takes 6.8 hits for spear to kill knight with 190hp (not including armor but it makes it even worse. Reduce 20 hp from that and we got something like 6.001 hits to kill knight so we’re still hitting them 7 times to kill them. Remember early knights got 190HP not 200.

This same applies to castle age lancers. It wont reduce the amount of hits.

It would only affect archers, horsemen, arrow fire from TC / Outposts

Top of that its not that they got more hp that is the issue. Issue for french is that they do everything well and they got best unit in game available in feudal + castle. Sure its expensive but if you keep them alive you won’t lose anything and you get complete mapcontrol.

Besides spears are just meme against heavy cavalry. I keep wiping spear heavy armies left and right because they can’t deal with heavy cavalry.

Its even harder to hold on against imp. This obviously depends on civ etc. For example there was a pro game (Can’t remember who played it) but it was china vs HRE. HRE hit fast imp which resulted china going all in and losing game 100-0 because imp age advantage.

There is VERY short timing which lets player to cause massive dmg to fast imp (again depends on civ) but that timing is anywhere from 20-90 seconds which is very short and if you miss it then its over for you or you can try to get imp yourself.

Agree only if dynasties are discounted by at least 50%, but if its anything above then china should keep all dynasty bonuses active at same time. Even if you get 10% movement speed from yuan. You won’t really go for it during castle. Its not that great and Yuan not giving you anything else so its even less worth going

190hp early knight with 3/3 armor being attacked by a harden spearman that has 28 damage vs cav, would require 8 stabs to die from that spearman. If you reduce the early knights hp by 20 the early knight now dies in 7 strikes! WOW 7 STRIKES? Why is that important you ask? Well currently you need 3 spears to defacto kill 1 early knight… and the knight can disengage and engage at will on top of (current patch) force spears to brace, delay then charge for dmg…

But if it only takes 7 strikes to kill an early knight now you only need 2 spearman to defacto kill an early knight and if the castle knight only upgrades HP to 200hp and armor remains 3/3 it now means a castle knight needs 3 harden spearman to be killed!!! This is a nerf that would be impactful in small skirmishes.

Similarly with MAA if castle age units are only slightly stronger as i suggested then previous age units in MASS can deal more efficiently and for longer vs current age units.

Also the 170 hp turns out to be a break point for melee armor vs spears. If early knight researches armor and spears do NOT get melee upgrade it will now go back to requiring 3 spearman to definitely kill a knight, this would make blacksmith important in this match up.