What "Clear" role you want to give "Militia Line"?

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
183

What about bond the militia line even more with buildings.
I proposed a time ago make militia gain armor when fighting next to buildings(enemies and allies). Something like +2/2 in an area of 2 Tiles around any building (non stackable).

This way, militia becomes strong pushing oponents cities and defending the own one, while remains weak in an open field battle against most power units.

Some buildings could lack this feature, like stone defenses, palisades and TCs.

As a experiment, this fewture could be applied to forests as a civ bonus.

184

My over all suggestions:

Milita Line

  • New Heavy Infantry Armour Class
  • Small buffs too all units starting at MMA
  • All Upgrades are halved in cost and research time

Man at Arms

  • +5 HP

Long Swordsman

  • +10 HP
  • -5 second training time

Two Handed Swordsman

  • +10 HP
  • +1 Attack (Same attack as Champion)
  • -5 second training time

Champion

  • +10 HP
  • +1 Melee Armour
  • -5 second training time

Supplies

  • Refunds 15 Food from already trained Milita Line units
  • Milita Line regenerates +10 HP per Minute

Gambesons

  • Does not require Supplies
  • Heavy Infantry +1/+1 armour

Arson

  • Removed
  • All Castle and Imperial Age Infantry units get +2 attack vs. Buildings

Scout Line

  • Scout Line gets Eagle Warrior Armour class
  • Now they are hard countered by the Milita Like
  • Winged Hussars and Magyar Hussars get the armour class too but with some resistance

Summery of the buffs

  • Milita Line gets cheaper to tech into
  • Milita Line becomes easier to mass (lower training time)
  • The mass is easier to keep alive because of the HP regeneration
  • Long Swordsman trades effectively with Knight
  • Now very effective vs. all Trash units
  • Still weak to ranged units

New Milita Line counters

Axeman Unit

New Castle Age Barracks unit.

Stats Long Swordsman Axeman
Cost 45 Food 20 Gold 20 Food 40 Gold
HP 70 60
Attack 9+2 15+2
vs. Heavy Infantry 0 10
Reload time 2 3
Melee Armour 1+3 2+2
Pierce Armour 1+3 0+2
Speed 0.99 1.1
Train Time 16 Seconds 21 Seconds

With Imperial Age Upgrade

Stats Champion Heavy Axeman
Cost 45 Food 20 Gold 20 Food 40 Gold
HP 80 70
Attack 13+4 18+4
vs. Heavy Infantry 0 15
Reload time 2 3
Melee Armour 2+4 3+3
Pierce Armour 1+5 0+4
Speed 0.99 1.1
Train Time 16 Seconds 21 Seconds

The Axeman has a slow but strong attack with a strong bonus vs. Heavy Infantry.
They will be able to fight other melee units like Knights decently but are weak vs. Archers because of their low Pierce Armour.

Their main purpose is to balance the Milita Line on different Skill levels. Less skilled players can’t micro Archers as effectively so they would struggle against a buffed Milita Line with many civs, this unit gives them a clear counter option.
On the other hand the Axeman is easier to counter in higher ELOs because of their low pierce armour.

Why Axeman

Axes were commonly used all around the world but not many units in AoE2 currently use them. Also axes are good against armour because they put a lot of force on a small area so making them counter Heavy Infantry in particular makes sense.

Which units are Heavy Infantry

All Infantry with a base movement speed of less then 1.0:
Teutonic Knight, Warrior Priest, Dismounted Konnik, Serjeant, Flemish Milita, Obuch and of course the Milita Line including the Legionary.
Other units like Jaguar Warriors, Samurai, Kamayuk or Condottiero are not Heavy Infantry!
All Heavy Infantry units are also affected by Gambesons now (their stats should be adjusted accordingly). Maybe some units like Flemish Milita should get 1.0 speed instead of being classified as Heavy Infantry.

Availability

Thematically this unit would fit most civilisations but I don’t think all need it.
All Eagle civs have good anti Infantry options already for Example.

Mounted Crossbowman

  • Same stats as (Heavy) Cavalry Archer
  • -1 Attack compared to (Heavy) Cavalry Archer
  • Bonus damage vs. Heavy Infantry instead of Spearman
  • Replaces (Heavy) Cavalry Archer

The idea for this unit is to a less all round unit compared to the current Cavalry Archer but instead focused on taking down Heavy Infantry.
The high mobility of Cavalry Archers is already almost a hard counter vs. any slow Infantry but this would double down on it and make them better at this role even for people that struggle with micro.

Availability

This could maybe just be a regional unit or generally just be relatively rare.

Heavy Bolt technology

  • Available in the Archery Range in Castle Age
  • Crossbow and Arablester +3 attack vs. Heavy Infantry

This technology allows the Archer Line to counter the Milita Line more effectively without making them better vs. all kinds of Infantry (like Huskarls and so on)

Availability

This technology would only be available to a few selected civilisations. For those civilisations that would struggle against a buffed Milita Line but also miss the Infantry technologies to make Axeman viable.
This is not intended as a technology for already strong Archer civilisations.
Potentially mutually exclusive with Thumb Ring.

Chronicles

None of this should be applied to Chronicles. I think that should use another solution for the problem.
My suggestion for Chronicles is much simpler:

  • Milita Like +5 attack vs. Infantry
  • Hopplite Line +5 attack vs. Cavalry
  • Hippeus +5 Infantry Armour

Summery

I know those are a lot of changes and it would mean rebalancing practically every civilisation but I think this would make the game a lot more interesting, especially in Castle Age.
The nature of this suggestion also means it can’t really be implemented gradually over time since the new Anti Heavy Infantry units only make sense if Heavy Infantry is actually viable.

2 Likes
185

I feel like ppl are far too much harsh on M@A line getting new counter unit to counter them. We already have Serjeant and they are already used at large scale. Better stats to survive Cavalry and Archer and decent stats overall to get your job done. Despite the fact they have anti-bonus damage resistance.

Also +5 Attack vs Cavalry should simply be a new tech for all Swordsman class infantry. Some civs get it and some civs dont.for balance reasons. So that current infantry civs actually picks Swordsman as a utility melee unit instead of Knights despite not specializing in it.

In Chronicles, Battle Drills is actually a bad tech. You get access to Paragon and apply a bit better stats on Castle Age Long Swords. But you still wont use it as it has that classical problem of too much tech and applies to 1 unit line only.

186

True…but that’s their ONLY bonus. Bear in mind, we’re talking about sorta giving that bonus to civs that already have a civ bonus for their infantry.

Moreover, the celt bonus is kinda irrelevant for their militia line, since they’ll almost always go for their UU instead, anyway, since it’s basically superior in about every way. In practice, that bonus is mostly for their spearmen, imo.

1 Like
187

Refund militia food cost, and next militias cost -15F or is it refunded when the unit dies?

188

Think refund is based on militia currently existing in the map. Like the Flemish Revolution thing.

189

I prefer to have synergy units before any counter units. Knights, being the most viable castle age units, seem to get the most synergy units, like xbow, skirm, scorpions and even with its own counter units pikes and monks. Almost units from all military buildings synergize with knight.

190

It is because the whole game is balanced around KTs.
Its the only unit which stats never had been changed. It is the anchor in terms of balancing all the other units.

2 Likes
191

I purposely made the main counter unit (Axeman) and Infantry as well so it will result in more infantry being used in general.
I also designed them to be weak to Archers in a way that they will likely be mostly useless in higher ELOs. The Axeman is mainly there to balance different player skill levels.

Also the Axeman is probably pretty decent against Knights because their high base attack will mostly ignore the armour.

I don’t know what their thoughts were when they designed the Infantry in Chronicles. They even removed Gambesons. When would you ever want to use the Milita Line in Chronicles?
Spartans and Athenians have bonuses for Hoplites and Achaemenids are missing way to many upgrades.

That’s why I suggested the +5 attack vs. Infantry to make them a counter Hoplite unit while the Hoplite gets +5 vs. Cavalry to be more useful and also it make sense because they use spears.

Refund 15 Food for previously trained Militas. Future ones just cost -15 Food.
It’s there to make the techology more affordable and punish players less for training Milita before researching supplies.

There are a lot of units that synergize well with the Milita line but the Milita Line just has too low stats for it’s price and there is usually another unit with better sets for it’s purpose.

Like Milita Line synergizes well with Siege (protecting them from melee units) but the Spearman Line does that better.
The Milita Line synergizes with Crossbows (countering Skirmishers for them) but the Knight does that better.
The Milita Line synergizes with Knights (countering Spearman for them) but the Crossbow and Skirmisher do that better.
The Milita Line synergizes with Monks (countering Light Cavalry for them) but the Spearman and Knight do that better.

The Milita Line is just almost always the inferior choice.

192

Does anyone here know if it’s possible to link attributes to unit formations in Genied? For example, in a box formation, infantry units could have more piercing armor, in a line formation they could have more speed, and so on.

2 Likes
193

Feels like just having Jaguar Warrior for all civs. Besides, I wouldn’t just add a new counter unit without even estimating the power creep that can happen afterwards. Jags are also one of the weakest Infantry UU rn in the game.

In future, if they add more Chronicles civs then we may want to use generic unit lines besides Hoplites. Because non-Greek civs wont necessarily have Hoplites. Like Romans/Egyptians in future if DLC reaches that point that is.
Chronicles removing a unit-line tech was actually a right way to improve M@A line but it still has the problems which we discussed in the forums already.
I do like the idea of Hoplites belonging more into Swordsman category but acts more like a less specialized anti-Cavalry Infantry like Kamayuk. Chieftains applied specifically for Swordsman is a right way to solve it as a new tech. But Vikings just simply happened to have it applied for Spearman-line as well if researched.

Besides I think its better to have Scout-line treatment for Swordsman. A separate special buff like Gambeson automatically applied but with better stats actually. Like +2/3 armor or +2 cavalry and +2 pierce or just a flat out HP buff all across the board with a bit of speed upgrade(civs having Squires will have even better speed)

That can be bad idea actually because its a bit of tilting tech like Flemish Revolution but you get it way early. Having refund for M@A on the map makes you work to keep the M@A alive. However later in the game you can tilt it a lot if you count every M@A units ever created. Suddenly getting a lot of food out of thin air. Another issue is you run into the classical problem of once again tech applied only for M@A line.
I believe best solution would be a stat buff and -5f for all Infantry across civs. Remove Supplies.

1 Like
194

Jaguar Warriors would indirectly be buffed a lot by this change.
Milita Line getting stronger gives them a lot more reasons to be trained.
Also they don’t take bonus damage from the Axeman but instead deal bonus damage against them.

A lot more civilisations around the Mediterranean used Hoplite or Hoplite like units like the Romans, Carthage and of course Macedonians.

Making the Milita Line a counter against Infantry in general would make sense because Chronicles will likely have more Infantry regional units and UUs.

You mean for AoE2 or Chronicles?
I think bonus damage vs. the Scout Line and generally better Melee stats will likely be enough to be good against most cavalry.

I thought about refunding all that you trained and not just the ones that are still alive.

Basically makes the discount effectively exist from the beginning. But also kinda doesn’t so you can’t as easily spam them in Dark Age.

Maybe the refund should be limited to the Food Cost of the tech making that go down all the way to 0 but never negative. That means it only applies to 5 units max.
You still have to pay the 75 Gold.

195

These “synergies” almost never happen practically. Pikes always in front of xbow/siege. Cheaper skirm is added behind knight instead of knight mix with LS. Militia line get the most counters, even more than light cav-line. Adding another counter unit is not really a good idea currently.

3 Likes
196

Militia line adds melee armor to rams when garrisoned. Each militia iniside gives +1 melee armor.

3 Likes
197

I had a similar idea. Milita units refund 15F when die.
This way, you still have the return of existing units, but it depends of how successfully you used them.
Taking in count the low suvival capacity of militia-line this could help to promote its use without make them cheaper (which could mess the late game), and don’t let you fall too behind in eco if you lose the momentum.

If, for example, you go LS vs knights and take bad fights, then, the food refunded could be used for transition to pikes more easly, or having a better time for Imperail age.

198

I would be for removing it and giving a permanent 5F discount to the whole line.

This seems excessive.

Maybe not like that, but I very much agree with the spirit of the proposal.

Surely you are going to break something, it would be much better to make the Light Cavalry class as was proposed some time ago.

It doesn’t really matter, because Knights + Crossbowmen remains the strongest combo in the game. They cover each other’s weak points perfectly.

199

Fine, but let’s think in practical terms. Would any civilisation in Feudal have MAA OPs paying 75F? Doesn’t seem so to me.

1 Like
200

It should cost wood instead…

2 Likes
201

For nearly half of all civs, LS can be a fast castle age opener.
This requires faster techs and more m@a survival.
LS upgrade instantly researched. Scale infantry armor gives +1/+2 and plate infantry armor gives +1/+1.

LS takes -20 damage from mangonel-line to fight pikes+mangonel.

I found LS actually deal +0 anti-cavalry damage, which was against old ballista elephant. Maybe unupgraded knight have -5 cavalry armor and chain cavalry armor gives +5 cav class armor. LS will be effective vs knight in early castle age.

LS of infantry civs can be further buff thru rams/towers. Guard towers/Keeps/Arrowslits can be directly upgraded in tower itself.
Garrisoned LS gives towers/TC more LOS.

For infantry civs, LS should be appear at least 25% of their games in Castle age. The infantry civ can have at least one of the following techs

Allow research THS/ Champions in Castle age. (Some infantry civs with weak archers may have it. Bulgarians have instant THS in Castle age. Directly applicable in civ bonus)
Allow LS to shoot arrows in towers and TC and LS can build towers.(For infantry civs that have good archers, tech researched in towers)
Each garrisoned LS gives +1 MA to rams. (For infantry civs that have good siege, tech researched in siege workshops)

202

I think is more elegant give militia an insta stats upgrade in feudal (like scouts and eagles in castle age) to reach the current MAA stats. Then MAA upgrades, give MAA the current LS stats, on so on.
Maybe then upgrades could cost a little more, but give a really good powerspike. We already saw with Armenians that militia-line upgrades one age earlier don’t make it OP.

Some tweaks in civ bonuses could be necessary anyway.
Bulgarians: instead of free upgrades, could be instantly, but no free.
Armenias: could be replaced by something else, like militia-line upgrades gold cost removed.

1 Like