Maybe with these changes:
-Swap milita cost (more gold than food). Move supplies to imp and make it reduce or change the gold for food. (it helps to mass it early and match the production of 2 stables KTs with 3 barracks at the cost of drain your gold early)
-Give LS onward +1 base melee armor (help against cavalry in general).
-Reduce its collision size. This way more units could attack a building or big units at same time (I think there is a Admiral Wololo video about it). This help militia with pathing to “compensate” de movility.
-If the size reduction is not enough, bonus vs building or arson could be buffed.
-Give Stone defenses positive “standard buildings” armor class to offset the bonus of militia line.
Yeah, good point. Maybe just BE then? My idea was BE lose “Elephant” armor class but gains “Eagle” armor class with some negative armor, making Militia line instead of spearman line the hard counter to BE.
Ghulams can be beaten by Hussar pretty effectively. Huskarl is indeed hard with just generic Champion as Goths can just add their own. But both being faster than Militia line won’t change much. Especially Ghulam is just Eagle and you are just having a 4th American civ with Eagle that can always outrun Militia line.
From TMR, I’m starting to think that LC/Hussar being counter to LS/THS/Champion will be better actually. In that way, we can buff Militia line without thinking much about being OP in late game low gold situation.
Yep. I also have similar thought. I’m trying to shift the trash trio counter mechanics into gold trio counter. Archer/skirm → Infantry → Cavalry → Archer/skirm.
Several issues:
- Battle Elephants have the Cavalry armour class and the Elephant armour class so they will always be countered by Pikeman.
- Almost every Infantry unit, including Pikeman, have bonus damage vs. Eagle Warriors.
- Other units exist too. Flaming Camels, Kamayuk, Scorpion and Genoese Crossbowman all have bonus damage vs. Elephants
Why do you want this particular change anyway?
I think it’s fine when the Champion counters all Trash units since most of the Gold units counter Champions.
Champions cost less gold but not that much less. Adding a few Arbalester, Cavalry Archers, Scorpions or especially Hand Cannons can be very effective.
Solid idea.
This one I don’t get. I don’t see LC as oppressive.
If that happens…11
Yes. Pikeman should still have some bonus attack.
Pikeman one is already okay. They will do less damage still. Say for example from 48, 60 to 30, 40 or something closer.
Yeah. Maybe I should just add “BE” armor class.
Not anymore tbh. It was a thought back when BE used to suck at everything.
And that is precisely why we have 10 militia line change proposal every months.
So I think changing Militia line vs trash unit relationship will have a positive impact.
- Either Militia line needs to be even better against trash that you will genuinely think about LS for double gold combo. Right now Knight+Xbow or Camel+Xbow or Eagle+Xbow is far better than whatever LS is paired with.
- Or they should be countered by a trash unit which can be LC/Hussar while become significantly better against gold units like Warrior Priest.
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I dont think its possible to fill the table this way. Given the current meta, the table on the left will and should remain as it is. Only way to give longswords a clear purpose is to either make other unit choices equally expensive to get started as longswords (like a worse version of archers, skirms, scouts, knights, ca and 2-3 upgrades for each of them to get to where they currently are) or modify strategies like tower rushing which usually make it harder to micro ranged units at multiple spots. The latter might need some drastic changes to standard land map resources.
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Because I don’t see them as much as other military units.
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militia and men at arms are still very popular. Should we also buff light cav? we usually only see scouts and then hussars. Should we buff eagles? I rarely ever see feudal eagles these days
Not every unit needs to be viable in every age
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Some civs can be buff indirectly thru long swordsman buff. (Probably thru tech that replace arson) Like Bulgarians, Dravidians, Armenians, Sicilians, Celts. At least infantry civs have more militia play instead of xbow/knight does not hurt diversity.
Currently,even light cav is seem often in Arena. But long swordsman isn’t even situational vs eagles when knight available.
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And still dies to Hussar for the most part. Also all trash unit have higher base speed than them. Only after Squires they can move barely faster than skirms. So most of the time trash units will just run away.
Honestly it is a great idea. You can just consider it as Hussar vs Winged Hussar.
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Probably not really serious suggestion: give most/every civ a new huskarl-type (or eagle warrior-type) unit from the barracks, that is good/reasonable against archers/cavalry and takes bonus damage from swordsmen. Now swordsmen’s clear role is countering the new unit. Give little-used infantry unique units bonus damage against the new unit too.
As a bonus, possibly split two-handed swordsmen/champion from the rest of the line, to make it easier to tech into in the late game.
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Very similar to what i proposed.
I like it.
I don’t like this idea for multiple reasons.
Archers have a lot more counters then Knights.
Knights, Light Cavalry, Skirmishers, Mangonels and Scorpions all more or less counter Archers.
Knights on the other hand are practically only countered by Spearman.
If you ignore units that are available to less then half of the civilisations.
What if there was an Infantry unit that is good against Cavalry without being weak against Archers like Spearman is.
This unit would then get bonus damage from the Milita Line and other Infantry (just give them Eagle Warrior armour class).
Currently it’s relatively easy to add anti Spearman units to your cavalry because almost every ranged unit just deletes Spearman, even Skirmishers that are supposed to be an anti Archer unit do the same amount of bonus damage to Spearman.
If there was an Infantry unit without Spearman armour class and 2 base pierce armour that does 1.5-2x damage vs. cavalry but has Eagle Warrior armour class you would see a lot more Infantry being used in the game in general.
This new Infantry unit would be pretty strong against cavalry since you can’t just add a few ranged units to quickly take care of them.
This new unit would incentivise people to train Swordsman to counter them instead. But there would still be other options like training Hand Cannons or siege weapons so you have options if your Swordsman are bad. But swordsman are always an option since every civilisation but Persians have Two Handed Swordsman available.
Suggested stats would be:
- 25 Food 40 Gold
- The same stats as Long Swordsman and Champion with Gambeson
- +5-10 vs Cavalry
- No Bonus damage vs. Eagle Warrior or Buildings
- Eagle Warrior armour class
That means they would take 6/8 bonus damage from Long Swordsman/Champion on top of 1-4 bonus damage from almost all other Infantry units.
The higher Gold cost makes them easier to train in Castle Age but a lot less viable in the Late Game.
This also makes them clearly different compared to the current Spearman Line.
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This sounds like flemish militia. But units that were strong vs both knight and xbow have received nerf due to imbalance in team games, like high PA old Indians imperial camels.
Definitely better than current. But I see archer line being potentially underpowered. How can you balance this? Do you have any suggestion?
People are afraid of changing the meta.
If the Knight or Crossbow would be added to the game now everyone would call them totally OP, especially the Knight.
People are just too used to OP knights by now.
Also the unit I suggested is practically a worse version of the Viking Long Swordsman and Champion.
They also get +5 vs. Cavalry but also more HP, keep the bonus damage and also no Eagle Warrior armour class.
Though with full civ bonuses this unit might become pretty strong like Japanese or Goth version of this unit if it was available to those civs.
Which turned into an infection and results in death. An indirect casualty.
All in infantry meta?
This is the right way of thinking. The question is how?
Yeah. In the end, speed is just king in in this game.
Wow. Never thought about the real purpose of Catas bonus damage.
There was no Hussar to begin with. Hussar was added in AOC. Also not so many civs with faster farming or any civ with cheaper scout line. Khmer, Slavs, Magyars, Berbers, or even Romans or Burgundians LC/Hussar spam can also overpower Champion.
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I said “probably not really a serious suggestion” because I was worried about it having too much overlap with huskarls or eagle warriors, thus making those units and the civs that have them less special/interesting. But I posted it mostly to see if other people saw other issues with it. I think @Skadidesu has hit the nail on the head:
I agree with this. Knights are also countered by monks, but monks are expensive and difficult to use well.
This seems good to me, and also avoids overlap with huskarls or eagle warriors.
This is fine, it doesn’t have to be available to everyone, although I think it should be widely available.
Difficult to know what the unit should be called or what it should represent though. If it’s widely available it needs to be fairly generic, and its weapon should be something that plausibly counters cavalry.
The idea would be that this unit is good against those two units in particular.
Maybe some other units should get bonus damage against them like Cavalry Archers.
I forgot monks yeah. I was like, wait is it really just spearman, that can’t be right.
Not that the current units are all that generic named or looking, but of course it would be better to not make things even worse.
A Hoplite would fill that role perfectly. But it’s kinda outside of the setting.
Shield and spar was still a common combination in the middle ages.
I don’t like how the Hoplite is done in Chronicles. They way to similar to the Milita Line so you would rarely want to train both.
The main advantage is that you get them directly when reaching Castle Age and you don’t have to upgrade them. Similar to Knights.
Also both civs have some bonuses for Hoplites. But they aren’t really good units since they are barely as good as the Militia line that doesn’t even have Gambesons and then they have to compete against the normal Knight and Crossbow.
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The balance of archer is simple: Lower the price. Historically an archer had 2/3 the salary of an infantry.
So naturally I would like to see more powerful infantry and cheaper archers.
My idea of longswords covering knight’s weakness is not refined yet. Xbow can counter pikes, camels and monks far better than longswordsman. And I am afraid buffing longswords against knight’s counter can be an indirect knight buff again like scorpion buff.
For covering xbow, I have mentioned once before. Long swordsman will have their upgrade researched instantly. Take -50% damage from mangonel and scorpions(do not include pass-thru damage) and reduce nearby units received blast dmg by 50%.