Seriously, what gives? Did the HRE and OotD do something to the devs personally to make them feel the need to put two civs in the dirt by making them bothplace holder civs?
HRE is the original placeholder civ, no new units, no new techs except for two melee armor techs which is locked behind memework palace and garrisoned villagers/miltary still lose their prelate buff even though they were buffed 1 second ago before going into a building. It’s been two years have and HRE has gotten nothing noteworthy. What do you have against this civ, I would love to know.
Same goes for OotD, even though it’s a newly released “civ variant” it’s obviously the one with the lowest amount of time put into it. No new units, so again One 1, Uno unique unit. (but teutonics are in the campaign, just to give the HRE/OotD mains a middle finger, because why not?) Terrible eco, reskinned models with a stupid model scaling. And not even a change or even new landmarks. Except they slaughtered the aachen, because they knew people would whine about “muh 40% gather rate”.
HRE aachen: 1 x 1.4 = 1.4 gather rate … OOTD aachen: 1.25 x 1.1 = 1.375 gather rate. Many players are not taking into account that the dragon villagers base rate is 25% higher, so they get a bigger bonus. It means OOTD villagers are perma blessed. Maths
That is balanced out by their vills costing 20% more and taking 20% longer to create. OOTD Aachen is pretty mediocre. Also has someone tested whether the bonuses are multiplicative like you are calculating or if they are just additive.
I dont like how people keep thinking that HRE archen gives 40% gather rate. It doesn’t and it’s not comparable this way. All it does is inspire villagers that you can ALREADY inspire with prelates. Archen doesn’t add a new 40%, it just make it easier to inspire villagers. You could instead just train 2-3 prelates and have them inspire villagers in the same zone. So Archen is more equivalent to saving a few villagers, but its definiely not +40% to your eco.
On the other hand, OotD archen is a PURE 10% that you have NO other way of optaining in any other way. This is a huge difference when trying to decide which landmark to pick, if the % was higher archen would be auto pick all the time. With HRE its not because you can still inspire villagers without it.
So we really need stop comparing HRE bonus to OotD archen bonus, because they are not comparable, better comparison would be to check how much a landmark like zhu xi meditation garden generates vs the OotD chapel. This would be a much better comparison. Or the mali quary would be a good comparison too.
Now yes maybe OotD eco bonus is underwhelming, but if it is, its the villagers that would need buff, not archen, otherwise archen would become auto-pick when both landmark should be viable.
Generation vs gather rate are not even close to comparable. The other one depletes resources faster and the other genereates free resources out of thin air.
And why is everyone stuck up on the f**ing gather rate when it’s their mlitary that is screaming for some sort of update. Both HRE and OotD has the worst military in the game. And nothing comes to close to how bad they are.
Well, actually OotD units can beat 2 equivalent units from other civs but their eco is really SLOW. And as an added bonus, their high HP units make their enemies less prone to overkill compare to regular units, and we all know how letting uniis auto attack works in this game.
Effectively OOTD has arguably the worst eco in the game. Their units (while somewhat easier to counter) actually perform well against enemy armies of equal cost. While HRE Meinwerk is considered a meme building because it is so bad, OOTD usually goes Meinwerk even though it is barely better than the HRE version (arguably it’s weaker since some of the techs are actually worse on OOTD units and a lot of the unique techs are meh) because the OOTD Aachen is just such a mediocre landmark.
It feels really bad that OOTD has basically no eco bonus until swabia (effective 5% faster gather rate and slightly more resilient to raids) and 2 really underwhelming feudal landmarks. I’m a bit leery about just buffing OOTD feudal age since their feudal military is actually really strong, but they definitely could use some love somewhere
Right, in Feudal their MAA will bully any civs that don’t have Feudal heavy cavalry. Regular MAA, Palace Guard, Samurai fare so poorly against OotD MAA in Feudal
Actually OOTD usually go horseman + archers in feudal. Their horseman crush anything that isn’t a spearman (they even trade well vs knights), and their super archers just shred spears.
OotD units cost twice as much and take twice as much, but they have 2x hp, deal (in most cases) 2x damage by having an increased attack speed as well as damage, and train much faster in comparison ( 2 hre man at arms takes 46 seconds while ootd takes 27 ). Their villagers train slower, but benefit more from eco upgrades because of their increased gather rate. They are one of the best examples of a variant civ for the sole reason that they do little to change the identity while being different on every level in terms of how you play them, like unique on an individual level. The blandness I get, but arguably every military unit (aside from siege) and villager is unique for this faction, it’s the HRE identity that it suffers most from.
They actually do. People ran tests and their units largely beat equivalent enemy units 2 vs 1. While they don’t do double damage, they end up killing a unit at some point which halves the enemies damage, while the OOTD unit doesn’t lose half their damage output once falling to half hp.
I think spearmen are like the one exception since their damage vs non-horses doesn’t increase much, but they absolutely decimate cavalry much better than 2 regular spearmen.
Tbh I think the gilded xbows and dragon handcannoneers are their best units. The extra range and insane dps those units output are just disgusting. The archers are very solid too with extra range/damage. OOTD actually beats most civs on equal resources, they just have less eco (pre-swabia) and are somewhat more vulnerable to counter units (though mangonels are actually pretty weak vs OOTD) than most other civs.
Someone did the math on Meinwerk upgrades and the MAA one is actually much stronger than it sounds due to rounding/applying before armor (to the point it is very cost efficient against anything except xbows). Sadly other than the landsknecht upgrade, the rest are really mediocre.
The disadvantage of OotD is that their villagers are slow to make. So their eco early game is bad. But their advantage is that late game, their eco is actually better because their villagers are more population efficient, so you can have as many villagers as your opponent, and still have +25%. This becomes especially true if you get the Palace of Swabia, which completely negates the OotD weakness. You just need survive until then. But OotD is extremely strong in imperial.
Not only that but the eco upgrade are multiplied to the 25% (the 25% is part of their BASE gather rate, not a bonus) so their eco upgrade also multiply that 25% so they probably have one of the best eco in the entire game in imperial.
I’d still buff them in feudal, just a slight buff to their 2 feudal landmark. Maybe a new tech in the meinwork, and give the chapel slightly more range.