True but since vilagers don’t auto-attack you have to micro them against the Hussars. Where flemish militia could auto-attack. I think the more useful thing about spansih vills is that you have more time to react since they don’t die that easily.
Does not sound bad either. Just two things that cross my mind:
- They do already have champions and Helbs
- Just boosting vilagers stats is very similar to the spanish tech
I would almost suggest just having the technology give you a certain number of these guys (the initial revolution) and the ability to make more at your town centers, but 1 this makes it almost exactly like the Sicilian tech and 2 it kind of wastes the historical inspiration. It’s so cool that these are villagers picking up arms.
Well can always change the availability of those. And champs take forever to tech into. Yeah its similar to the spanish bonus, but not really.
The spanish bonus is mostly used so vils dont die as easily and can build forward buildings easier. It usually is just used as a passive bonus. At least personally i dont think i have seen any pro matches where villagers were used to fight back raids.
This bonus would be more an active one. You have to actively change your playstyle to make use of it and attack the raiding cav with your villagers. While the main part of the tech would probably be the construction of the flemish militia i think this could double as an interesting mechanic for the lategame.
Build defences around your base. Towers, Castles, TCs and stone walls.
You only need one layer of stone walls, afterwards the enemy army is already reduced when it reaches your tcs. Even if they manage to take out 2 of your tcs + the vils inside, you are still economically ahead and should have no prob facing them further on.
The flemish revolution isn’t a game changer, it’s a game closer if the burgundians ahead anyways (which they mostly are because they are op even without that tech). It only helps them to finish a game they already won, because it sacrifices their whole eco.
I think this wasn’t intended, as it says it should be a revolution - so it shall actually allow a comeback. If so, it should be changed in something like the sicilian first crusade instead, which indeed offers some comeback potential, but is atm better used for a fc powerspike.
I see the revolution more a prob in team games as burgundian pocket: you go full eco + sling. If your teammates come in trouble you make the revolution, fight back the enemy, then, being slung from the teammates, you build up your insane lategame UU. This strat could crush teamgames completely.
What about having a limit of 50 Flemish Militia for the Flemish Revolution tech + still allowing to be trained @ TCs? It covers the Golden Spurs achievement, is the same as the Sicilians’ First Crusade tech for 10 Serjeants spawning at 5 TCs & doesn’t flatten the Burgundian player’s economy.
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You could actually go for 1 flemish militia for each vill (not deleting the vils), but heavily reducing their stats (halving in each aspect), taking no pop space but you can only have 1 per vil and cost only 1/2 of its actual costs.
This could then be balanced somehow, but then the tech cost need be adjusted to the pop cap.
I don’t really see it as much of an issue even in the format it exists in right now, in an even game using this tech is probably going to GG the Burgundian player, if you have even military strength starting out they just sacrificed all of their income, so you can continue creating units to grind away at their extra instant army while they cannot pay to make anything else, if they are behind already it isn’t going to save them for the same reason(Maybe kill your forward army but you can just pop out another and mop up while they’re stuck with ±50 surviving units and no income), the only situation they can reasonably use this is if they’ve got a bunch(more than you can produce in 10 minutes) of resources banked because you aren’t killing their existing army in which case you’re already probably going to lose and this just speeds it up
The only times this would break with that would be in extremely low skill games where people don’t know how to keep units in production and extremely high skill games where someone can actually deliver a death blow fast enough to the opponent after researching this even if they are pretty much even beforehand, or final case both players are going for super fast boom all the way to imp and not making military at all and Burgundian player swoops in with 100+ unit army while other player is researching paladin upgrade or something and has the starting scout for military, which would kind of be their own fault
Think of it this way, say you’re in normal game, other player kills your entire population of villagers but you still have 100 military units left, they have all of their villagers left and 50 military units, do you resign?
I agree with your assessment, but thats the point. I did never claim the tech is OP, just that it isnt possible to balance the mechanic. If it only allows you to win when you are ahead, how does it make sense? Its completely useless, with the additional problem that you pointed out, that it might be a noob stomper. Now the majority of players are noobs, so this tech can then indeed feel pay to win for them, even if its useless at a higher level. Thats a pretty bad situstion for a tech imo.
I agree that the tech is useless in most circumstances, and being a potential auto win button in noob games is an extreme problem(though this is just an opinion I am not sure about yet, it might not even be great there) - but I don’t think being useless except in a very very specific niche is a huge problem for a unique tech, their other tech is useful in a lot of circumstances so having one that is kind of a dud isn’t that unusual, they just recently made atheism for Huns actually do something in the official ranked game mode(and it is still not so great), double projectiles for skirmishers is borderline garbage unless you’re trying to kill rams with them or something, paper money is useless in a 1v1 and not even too good in a 2v2, probably some other examples exist for techs most people never research - the tech could be something that is useful most of the time but I think they’d need to take something else big away from the civ if it was, they’re already really strong
I don’t have an objection to changing it after/if they receive a nerf in another area, but leaving it as it is wouldn’t be the end of the world either, it would get used more often than the old atheism tech anyway
edit- another thought is that a lot of new players click the tech buttons without reading what they do, I know I did at some point, they might want to add a confirmation on the thing so you don’t GG yourself by pressing it by accident
I like the second idea. It is similar to Warcraft 3, and some people may argue that the 3 minutes cool down is not very aoe2like. but with the coustillier cool down, I think it sounds reasonable.
I can actually kind of see the T90 video in my head now. “Supplies! Now Murder Holes, Herbal Medicine. He’s just clicking all the techs, just getting them while he can. Oh, Flemish Revolution, I would be careful with that one, not sure if he intended to research that. In two minutes he’s going to be really surprised, he’s gonna be like wait why am I out of resources.”
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i think the revolution is the same… adjustable by stat tweaking
but imo the main issue is the tech doesnt scale with numbers… so either it is too weak with low numbers or too strong with high numbers
so part of the balancing should involve a cost linked to numbers… otherwise 200pikes will cost the same as 100 and have a vastly different effect…
but either way it needs to be roughly the same with having to deal with the gothic flood, it might be inevitable but either you knock them hard enough soon enough that it doesnt matter (like hera did with sic) or you prepare the right counter units so even if you lose the fight you win the war due to eco by killing off enough of the swarm that you can recover while he cant kill you before you recover…
It can be really usefull in TG. I was in a 4v4 and i was clearing on my side but not too fast, on the other side Goths were just wiping, and burgs had no way to stop them, they were going to call the GG but he tried that tech and he was able to stop Goths with that, then i sligned him food and eventually got to Goths town and won the game.
The idea is fine. Them being as strong as champions while having anti cav bonus isn’t.
As it is, as long as you use flemish militia smartly, your enemy villagers will take 16 minutes to gather resources to match the flemish army (80 resources each vill). 16 minutes is plenty of time to halt enemy eco and win the game.
People right now are just making villagers and running 150 Flemish militia suiciding them under castles without any siege to back them up. Of course it seems weaker for now but once people master Burgundians by for example making multiple trebs before doing it, the flemish push will be much harder to counter. Even if it wins you 20% of the games you would have lost otherwise that is 10% boost to winrate, much higher than any other unique tech. And burgundians are by no means a weak civ with their decent eco and cheap cavalry upgrades.
So yeah, Flemish militia should be spearmen armor class, have lower bonus against cavalry and like 2 less attack.
I think it would be nice if the flemish militia were military units, not villager units, that way you MUST win if you use it because your opponent could just do spies. I think that’s a good balance there.
How do you get the 16 minute number? villagers gather a bit more than 20 resources per minute but even rounding down to 20, with 100 villagers after 5 minutes you will be 10,000 resources in the hole for 8,000 resources worth of units, they break even with you at 4 minutes if you haven’t killed any villagers yet, unless you are talking about something else?
You need to match the resources of the flemish militia to counter them, not the villagers. Which are worth about 80 resources for me: Champions with big anti cav bonus
Then again spies really wasn’t meant to be used on an enemy who’s still at 200 pop. Its purpose is to let you hunt down those last few annoying hide and seek players, not to open up godly intel mode halfway through the game. The number of villagers thing is more of a representation of overall population size I think (without letting you “spies-cost-scout” how much military your opponent has, and without encouraging annoyinh players to make and hide as many skirmishers as they can) than something intended to be a loophole. I think that part of the Flemish Militia is actually fine.
But that is the resources of the flemish militia, 80 each x 100 = 8,000, 4 minutes of 100 villagers working = 8,000 so you can pay for the flemish militia units with 4 minutes of 100 villagers alive, this will scale to any amount of villagers you have when you research the tech, after 4 minutes a single villager would have given you the 80 resources you saved by turning it into a flemish militia, so for this to work you have got to kill the enemy player in less than 4 minutes otherwise they will have more units than you do assuming you were starting even to begin with - I think you would eat up a good portion of that time just walking the units to their town since they’re probably mostly inside yours on farms and not farming inside theirs
This is not including the 50 food it costs to create a villager in the first place, just what they would have gathered in that time period
The value goes up if you value the flemish militia as more than an 80 resource units each, if they’re 100 resources you have 5 minutes, but you’re getting into teutonic knight territory pretty quickly as you go up in per unit perceived value and I don’t think they’re that good, if they were then they need to increase the cost to produce them from a tc afterwards
second edit- If you think it will take them 16 minutes to achieve the same value worth of units as you produced with flemish militia tech then you have to value the flemish militia units as 320 resources each, persian war elephants only cost 275 resources each