The creator of the stats thread made it clear that they came from before the nerf to the Springalds.
I evaluate units taking into account purely technical aspects (numerical statistics and animation) and it indicates to me that the base siege damage of that unit is out of balance with respect to the “disadvantages” it has compared to a horseman. By the way, FLs are used at high levels and not 150 scouts.
I won’t even evaluate the ram’s comment.
Look, I understand that there are people who have become very fond of the civilization that they have as their main (you seem to be the example) and do not want to recognize that there is something broken (Chinese siege and FL situationally). I get it, but it is necessary to nerf the Clock Tower and yes, I agree that there are some Chinese Landmarks that can be slightly buffed for their characteristics, but the buff must be light I repeat.
I’m just going to tell you one thing, not only do you pay for dynasties, you pay to have more Landmarks than the rest of the civs.
In anywhere in his post he states its before the springald nerf and in title it specifically states patch 8324 statistics which was the springald nerf.
You don’t have to but its fact that its same way cheesy tactic which is used or tower rushes. No difference.
I made the pick to play chinese when I first checked which civs are in game without knowing anything. I picked it solely because my own personal interest to asian culture(Skorea, chinese and japan). Just like if devs ever decide to add japan it will be my new civ to go. It has nothing to do what ever civ is good or bad. I play the civ I want to play.
Like I have stated clockwork is strong and arguably strongest landmark from chinese arsenal, but if its nerffed then what does china receive in return? China isn’t strongest civ in game. Its a good civ and imp china is scary to fight against but before that china has nothing.
If chinese landmarks are subpar shitfests then reduce the cost of each landmark to 50% and allow us to keep all dynasty effects when moved to next dynasty. Reduce cost of IO by 50% and make training them 50% faster. Change taxation to work in way that all the taxes are delivered to imperial academy automatically regardless where its from and then IO can collect it and deposit it to closest TC.
There is VERY few scenarios where landmarks matter and how many civ holds. Biggest impact is on basetrades which isn’t something that happens frequently. If you’re overwhelming your opponent back to their base its unlikely that opponent can comeback.
Tbf landmarks are there only to stop games going to direction where someone sneaks one building inside forest and plays hide and seek.
If you loose multiple landmarks for rush, cheese or just in fight its fair to assume u have taken way too much economic dmg to come back so it wont make difference if you got 2 or 10 landmarks
There was no nerf to Springalds in that patch, it was in a later hotfix.
If it is your main, it is very difficult to be able to dialogue with you objectively.
In the history of RTS and sub-genres to date, many players who use a specific civilization tend to defend it tooth and nail so they do not nerf it, justifying broken things by saying that it is the only good thing they have and neglecting bonuses, all so that their civ is not nerfed, they are not based on numbers (except when they know there are elements of civ that need improvement), but on emotions.
When the Mongols and Rus (slightly) nerf, China will become one of the Tops, depending on the fix to Delhi or the possible buff to Abbasids and the overall balance.
I accept some slight improvement of the Barbican or some other Landmark that is hardly useful as the Imperial Palace, which perhaps should be used to see more than villagers, but the Siege Landmark must be adjusted properly, it is in the 3-4 best Game landmarks for a civ that has several extra bonuses.
No idea where you pull this out but care to find official patch notes stating this, because there is no such notes on steam update list and patch 8324 clearly states that they were nerffed.
And in history of online gaming ppl tend to complain about balance instead looking at themselves and admitting they failed. Its easier to put blame on something else. To me it matters 0 if they nerf firelancers / clockwork, but it requires massive buffs in other areas to keep china as viable civ in competitive play or hjigh elo. Idc about 1 elo plastic bottle leaque balance.
So why don’t you list on things that china does better than other civs outside of clockwork tower. China is literally labeled as gunpowder civilization so its completely normal to have stronger gunpowder units.
Irrelevant because its pure speculation if those 2 civs get nerffed and how much. Even if they nerf them to ground china will not become top civ across the board and statistic speak for themselves what ever you like to admit it or not
You’re acting like other civs dont have any bonuses??? Like Delhi free 20-30k gold!!! Or Ru free gold for killing animal here and there and domination over animals / relics??? Mongols insane trading?? French cheaper eco upgrades and better cavalry?1 and list goes on
Look, China wouldn’t need massive buffs if Clocktower was nerfed, because that would be putting out the fire with gasoline. I would even see a certain discount when it comes to doing the extra Landmark or slightly buffing some weak Landmarks. China would still be the best civilization in gunpowder anyway.
The Chinese start with 1 more villager and have IO, they build much faster, they have powerful unique units, they can collect bonuses from their Landmarks + the dynasty they have at that moment and they have a fourth age bombard that has no counter (and the latter it is a problem in the competitive high level).
Delhi is one of the worst in the data game, one of the least used and with the worst win percentage and you talk about 20-30k of free gold in technologies as if I did not have to do many scholars to make up for it or had to spend a lot of time ( apart from that their unique units are expensive and very slow). When the 15 bugs it has is fixed, it will be seen if it is competitive. The Abbasids also have a problem about one of their unique units and that outside of their economic side and that they can create siege with units, they don’t have something to stand out in their age passes.
Rus has a nice bonus, yes, but he also has an HA Bug (they have a faster ROF if they move a bit every time they fire) and I think they should cost gold and not wood, it would be a good step for them to do too. other strategies.
I also think that the speed of villager creation should be nerfed a bit in France and regarding Mongolia I would adjust the Ovoo, but that’s another matter.
I rely on data, numbers, and practical application. Based on that I have a criterion when it comes to asking or not for nerfs or buffs, not crying or complaining as you say.
Man u are absolutely clueless
Is that any different from french going cavalry? - YES - ONE BIG YES its completely different story
French knights cannot wipe your army (even when u have spears in it and u are HRE or FL is too much and only first wave gets stoped by spears) in one move and than kait you back (even your own knights when they are under speed dynasty bonus + THEY CANNOT WIPE YOUR LANDMARKS WITHIN 10 seconds. so yes … completely different unit … please start to play the game or watch some higher-ranked games before commenting - THANKS
Let me tell you something … u can EASILY turtle on every single map in 3v3/4v4 expect KotH or Arabia.
(side note: bonus for you is the fact enemy can never wall himself on those super-open maps so u can yolo him with FL from everywhere and he can do shit about it because there is no counter-unit in entire game of same speed as FL which can stop them.)
Yes it is completely fine that 50% of multiplayer is unplayable thanks to one unit … yeah very good
That super smart statistic you posted here has literally 0 games in TG modes - absolutely useless to concinue disccuss about that one with you
Bro we should stop I think he is a troll.
I really enjoy at least 4 chinese players in every 4v4 game among top100 where 4 of them are spamming and yoling with FL since 15 min mark.
Actually you’re right about the patch so my bad and the post. Springald nerf hurt china more than other civs because they had one of the strongest springalds at castle age.
you talk about nerf then what would u suggest? -25% hp to siege? HP buff removal? Range nerf?
No they wouldn’t. Or in theory you would be right because they got more gunpowder units while other civs would have less.
Nest of bees are worse version of mangonel so pointless gunpowder unit. Handcannoneers are not different from other civs and Rus unique hand cannoneers are just better. If I recall correctly french got 20% dmg to bombards? Grenadiers are just meme.
What? In which universe this is? Civs start with 6 villagers. China doesn’t get any extra villagers. Some civs tho start with bonus resources.
We do indeed have IO but from perspective of player who may not be super experienced with China doesn’t understand what kind of management goes to IO which makes China one of the hardest civs to play.
IO are still way too expensive and training time is too long. Also they got way too little hp and doesn’t benefit from any upgrades so its easy to snipe IO and in some situations killing IO can turn you a game because no more extra production. Imagine HRE monks able to buff workers while channeling in small radius around the structure. Would be same as IO.
Also because IO has 2 jobs. Tax collecting and buffing building it means China cannot do both at same time. So its not 20% extra resources if taxes are collected. (assuming don’t have extra IO to do one job and another one job.
Also taxes can be deleted by opponent. Got the juicy first mill with 1-3k gold? Well GL when enemy destroys it. All that gold is gone.
How about we add same mechanic to other civs.? Lets say if delhis buildings are destroyed which were used to research tech that tech is gone for rest of game. Sounds interesting right?
Then the fact that longer game goes on the taxing becomes irrelevant due to fact that our gathering buildings are far from core of base or TC and there is no way to efficiently collect the taxes meaning it loses lot of value the longer time goes on.
Also how about we make siege workshops for all civs to work as miniature landmarks and limit 3 siegeworkshops per civ. So once building is placed it has similar features as landmark. Once destroyed can only be repaired and cannot build new ones. Thats essentially same as clockwork tower. Sounds good right? You don’t mind giving up creating 10 siege workshop next to enemy base and out producing chinese player?
While we at it. All the unique civ units like french knights or longbowman can only be trained from landmark or requires specific landmark and special research that costs 25% less than landmark itself (to balance it out because not getting actual landmark so 75% cost of landmark)
While at it. Why don’t we just delete all armored units at feudal age. Its not fun to get higher armored units storming to your base while limited to spears that may catch something if lucky enough.
Which might be true but then again why many consider it strong civ on certain maps. Makes me wonder.
Sure the research takes long time. You get something completely free which is 20-30k gold plus other resources. If we count all together and - how many things they need to build to get the they still would get somewhere around 30k free resources.
Top of that delhi is capable of queuing all the tecs at same time meanwhile other civs are timing them or might wait for resource. Delhi research is best in game by far even tho it may take quite long but thats the way it has to be. Cant have tecs research in couple of minutes when it costs hardly anything to delhi.
Oh this reminds me. Its funny how are like nerf clockwork clockwork but at the same time HRE potentially gets 900g per minute with their landmark and 4TC landmark. Compared to chinese landmarks which are besides one are useless.
Most civs if not all got more than 2 good landmarks and some got something as powerful as clockwork if not more powerful.
Which dont lie and thats why if we look at the pre nerf springald data where china wasn’t nowhere near top and springald nerf hurt china most likely most from all the civs at castle age and imperial china got also hit due springalds are more effective against siege. But then again players are more used to civs and gotten better with them.
China is good civ as currently is. Imp china is strong but before that its weak. So wouldn’t you say its quite well balanced? Weak for first 3 ages and strong in 4th
Lol yes they can. LOL. ROFL. Would be same as archers cant kill spears. French knights can most certainly wipe your army and most certainly win a game for french.
This is very true that the first line is only stopped by spears first line. But better question is. Why are you clumbing spears in big ball? You want them to get killed? Do you run to mangonels as big clumb and eat all the hits. No. Why don’t you split your units?
Also oh please don’t start with what counters what bla bla. You don’t need spears to fight against FL.
Last night I stopped FL 15min rush with lancers (not FL) in 2v2 and we easily won the game. I wiped FL army 2 times with lancers at castle age while I had less lancers VS FL.
As long as player effectively split units basically any unit deals well enough with FL. Horses are good choice because they can match the speed of FL. Other units require brain to position them properly.
I actually watch lot of high elo games. Yet I have NEVER seen mass FL there. I wonder why.
I watched 4 or 5 Leenock games who is known to run lots of FL and all of the matches he just got his ass kicked so hard.
You’re free to go ask from top players if they think FL is OP. I can bet anything that none of them say its op so please and thank you verymuch for kind insights
Castle cup had 2v2 and there is team tournaments coming. Also high elo players do play team matches. Not probably 3v3 or 4v4 that much but 2v2. I met beastyqt in 2v2.
And why do you think its different from 1v1 or 4v4? Unless its 4 chinese players running to one opponent its still similar situation and same way of dealing with them applies. Question is also. What is your allies doing? If you get attacked by unknown amount of players in team game. Is your allies just idling at their base? Are you not trying find out whats going to happen? What steps do you take to deal with FL?
Why don’t you upload match where you get your ass kicked by FL and ill tell you why you lost and I can guarantee that none of those reasons contain words because of FL are op.
Sounds to me that you’re not good enough to finish the game fast enough or willing to coordinate with your team.
I do agree that team maps are quite large. Was kind of shocked how fast english was in my base in black forest when I played 1v1 match.
Why don’t you tell me what you do in your games? Do you expect to boom for 45mins then just fight?
15min FL is basically all in with nothing in base or high eco.
Do you wanna know why they do it? Because it works. Most players are pants down waiting to get soaped to their anus when FL are at their base. Scouting is key and it should be already very obvious if there is chinese they most likely do FL cheese so why are you not prepared for it from start of game? Or is it that you dont want to counter them?
I start with my mistake about the extra villager. Yes, I confused what I wanted civilization to have with what it actually has. 1 more villager for initial resources seems fair to me.
20-25% Siege Health on Landmark + being Siege Workshop would be a reasonable change.
You can make strong single units out of the Landmark and that Landmark produces them fast. China is one more turtle civilization so it will hardly be affected.
I am not going to comment on the difficulty of using IO, nor have I asked for it to be nerfed.
Delhi is a bug civ, when it gets fixed we’ll look at its potential. The free bonus is subtracted from the production time counter bonus, so don’t simplify.
HRE needs to upgrade Blacksmith’s Second Age Landmark and nerf TC and Relic landmarks.
I repeat, data, then the way of nerf or buff is another story.
P.S: I find it curious that you do not say that the Chinese Clocktower Bombard has no counter when there are countless videos that show that Chinese gunpowder is the best and it would remain the best without a doubt.
+25% HP instead of 50%. Mongol and Chinese speed buff should not apply to siege. It makes no sense for siege units. Nerf fire lancers and their late game is balanced. Devs can buff early game.
15min FL is basically all in with nothing in base or high eco.
Do you wanna know why they do it? Because it works. Most players are pants down waiting to get soaped to their ■■■■ when FL are at their base. Scouting is key and it should be already very obvious if there is chinese they most likely do FL cheese so why are you not prepared for it from start of game? Or is it that you dont want to counter them?
Balance discussions aside, the above quote is true for the majority of cases against FL and other things. Most players want to play a certain way whether it’s practical or not because it’s more fun for them. Unfortunately, this means that they will lose if somebody…doesn’t respect that idea.
God thank you. There is someone who gets it. Like literally. Player chooses the civ they want to play before the game starts and way they play and when opponent does X thing over Y they think its OP because they lost. Literally.
I don’t cry if I die to longbow ram rush. I look at what I did wrong and what caused the loss which is always either my own mistake or my allies mistake.
Do you know why china is more turtle civ? Because we got no tools to be aggressive especially at higher elos. At low elos its what ever you can go and ram rush anyone and win the game it doesn’t make it good tactic just means opponent sucked which is almost always the case.
Same applies to FL and mass bombards. Ppl are not willing to adjust their unit composition to counter enemy composition but instead they find their way to forums and cry. Do you even know how many times I have beaten double france who spam only knights with handcannoneers and bombards. All they do is click to line of bombards and horses just run around and die before they do anything.
If there was no counter to unit then I would agree its broken and needs adjustment but every unit has weaknesses and ways to deal with them.
If late game china needs nerf then they need massive buffs to early and slight buffs to mid game because both of those china sucks ass and is one of the worst civs.
Dark age - absolutely nothing just run around with scouts
Feudal - Yeah gl nothing else
Castle - you’re either behind already in tec and just trying to survive and react what opponent is doing with full map control and securing relics / sacred sites. If you go fast castle then you’re sacrificing your eco and most likely be behind rest of game.
Imperial - Gj if you survived now its time to do something on map.
So basically 3 ages before becomes strong civ china is just looking to secure their small plot of land and stay alive. What stops any civ just to keep harassing and doing dmg to china? Nothing. They can have all their time doing what ever they want on map and if china tries to contest they just lose.
If delhi is so unplayable why high elo players are picking it? And why someone like beastyqt who is very skilled player is able to go win streak after win with delhi against high elo opponents?
Do you mean that china could produce clockwork units from siege workshop? I happily take that. It means I can outproduce everyone with siege and destroy them even harder even with loss of 20-25% hp
It’s a common issue if we look at the stats related to people thst buy games regularely. Something like 70% never play online, maybe 5% of the online players are actually competitive, and only a fraction of those are tournament players also known as the players that spend quite a lot of their free time offering carefully thought out feedback on balance.
Above can be true for 1v1 but not for any other match. Team games are completely different and do involve coordination. 1v1 fire lancer discussion is irrelevant because its very late game unit and 1v1 games end very early.