Which "old" civilisations need more love?

Yeah anyway I think they’ve been lazy.

The Parthenon was converted into a church only in 610 circa during Phocas reign but it could work. I still don’t think Romans should represent the Papal states however if that’s the point.
Again if they’re that lazy the arch of Constantine was better as the last big arch built (it reuses a lot of old material and it wasn’t really the last but the most famous) and I see the share with Huns as a nice link.
Anyway in this case it’s the Huns wonder which is fantasy.

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Actually, this is mostly an infantry issue. A serious strategy to make infantry great again would be a good start to improve civs supposed to be “infantry civs”.

I felt that way since you’re also giving 30% more accuracy which is huge. Cheap(er) + more accurate which is a double buff. But sure now that you mention, it might not be as OP as OG Huns since maps aren’t like legacy Arabia and there are so many different powerful civs. So maybe it will be interesting without being too strong.

Yes, I know, and I was trying to explain my point further since it obviously wasn’t clear. I don’t have a problem with Franks, Teutons, Burgundians, etc. being knight civs, because they used knights in real life. I don’t have a problem with, say, Persians being a knight civ, because they had comparable heavy cavalry. My issue is that Khmer are usually played as a knight civ because they have a farming bonus and fully upgraded cavaliers – but as far as I know, historically, the Khmer didn’t use heavy cavalry at all. I’m not sure they had any kind of cavalry.

Sure, ### #### #### ############ are never realistic, so I don’t think that’s relevant.

I played AoE2 back in 1999 and had no readability problems with it at all, so I don’t buy that argument. Meanwhile, AoE4 has been widely criticised for its readability.

Unfortunately the infantry that has the trait of being good against Cavalry also has every negative trait imaginable.
No armour, very low base attack, bonus damage from any archer, not even being population efficient against it’s counters.
While the other Infantry unit is just a Knight in slow that doesn’t even win against a Knight with equal resources.

The only Infantry that is really good is the Eagle Warrior, since it can hold itself up against Cavalry and is good against Archers.

Sorry, I understood your point in the first post, I just wanted to make a joke.
That’s why I wrote it in brackets.

No idea what you were going to say here.

Archers and Crossbow were 2 different unit lines in the Alpha of AoE2 and they become 2 different unit lines in AoE4.

In some ways you could argue that Skirmishers have the role of Archers in AoE2.
Javelins were not that popular of a weapon anymore in the Middle Ages anyway.
Realistically a Javelin thrower unit should be a regional unit for places like Central America or Africa.

I saw more criticisms on the game being too focused on readability over realism then people criticising the readability itself.
But whatever, this is not a thread about AoE4.
Unfortunately most AoE fans seem to only line one game in the series and see every other AoE as a competition and copying anything from another AoE as inherently bad.

Sorry, I didn’t notice it got censored. Let’s try again: in AoE2, unit compositions of armies are not realistic anyway.

Possibly funny for you, frustrating for me because I thought I had not expressed myself clearly twice.

My opinion is that if we need/want to change something we should always look how to make it more realistic.
Like if a civilisation needs a bonus we should look how we can make this civilisation feel more like that civilisation and not just give them a random bonus.
Try giving historic strengths and weaknesses.

But don’t destroy balance or fun gameplay just for historical accuracy.

That applies to unit composition as well.
If we need to rebalance something then we should try balancing it in a way that makes the outcome more historical if we can.

I guess my method of putting ironic things in brackets isn’t that obvious.


Some second Unique/Regional Unit ideas for old civilisations

Just throwing some ideas in here because I feel like it.
Those units are not supposed to change the balance of the civilisations, if possible.

Britons and Celts


  • Longbowman is a shared regional unit that replaces the Crossbow (Elite version replaces the Arbalester)
  • Longbowman now have higher base range (+1/+2 compared to the Archer Line)
  • Britons lose their archer range civilisation bonus
  • Britons still have Yeomen and Celts still don’t have Bracer


  • New Unique Unit for the Britons
  • Available at the Castle
  • Fast training Spearman
  • +1(+2) Spearman amour class
  • Provide arrows when garrisoned (x2 as much as Teutone Infantry)



  • Naval UU
  • Needs Chemistry to unlock
  • Short range gunpoweder ship
  • Moves fast but doesn’t have much HP



  • Just entirely moved to the stable
  • There are UUs that can just be trained outside of the Castle now so it’s strange that 2 civilisations still need technologies for that

Unique Unit?

  • Some unit that would allow them to replace Trebuchets
  • The Trebuchet bonus makes 0 sense for a civilisation that never used them



  • Moved to the Barracks
  • Same reason as Tarkans
  • Anarchy could be a technology that buffs them, giving them lower base stats to reduce an early Castle Age power spice

New Unique Unit

  • Cavalry with attack bonus vs. Infantry and Siege
  • Bad against archers
  • Allows to remove all Gunpowder units from the Goths Techtree
  • Not sure about the name yet
  • Goths actually used a lot of cavalry historically but not really heavy cavalry like the Knight line



  • Takes -3 damage from all unique units (This is especially useful against ranged UUs)
  • The +1 Pierce Armour is taken away again


  • Ranged version of the Warrior Priest
  • Can heal units and carry relics
  • Has a ranged attack
  • Trained at the Monastery
  • Is female



  • Siege Unit trained at the Siege Workshop
  • Large AoE damage area
  • bad against buildings
  • Might replace the Mangonel line
  • Could be a shared unit with Chinese, but Koreans would get a bigger range (from their UT)


Crusader Knight

  • Replaces Paladin (And maybe also Cavalier)
  • Has more amour but less HP
  • Immune to conversion (or at last as resistant as the Scout Line)

Slavs and Saracenes

Need to be split into multiple civilisations.
Slavs already have 2 split off civilisations anyway.

Ethiopians and Malians

They really need regional unit sprites the most.
The generic slightly brownish skin that all units have works for most parts of the world, more or less, but it really doesn’t work for Sub-Saharan Africa.


Imagine that you wouldn’t have mentioned already a role for the Byzantine Paladin, against a rather popular combo…

Paladin itself is a bugaboo, the only pure offensive tool in the quiver of that defensive civilization with the ability to break through and raid. Every other Byzantine unit is much worse at raiding, including the Cataphract. It must be available to that great empire because it employed it. And since they are designed to have the widest of the tech trees, every unit is supposed to be available.

The entire civ. tech tree is based on lacking both of these two.

And no, it’s not. Celt Paladin lacks the most important Blacksmith upgrade between the Blast Furnace and the Plate Barding Armor. Byzantines lack the less important between the two.

Since Mamelukes did use the lance, why don’t they rework that “stupid” throwing scimitars, as Sandy said at 17:15 mark, to ‘Steppe Lancer like’ Mameluke? Nowadays we know how Steppe Lancers perform. This way that melee unique unit retains its main feature, the range, and becomes more historically accurate (and less stupid). Also perhaps give them horses instead of camels.


The mameluke rider guy is fine. The camel is the problem. And the reworked mameluke uses scimitars as the offensive weapon.

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This is where the devs can help. One of their monthly events can introduce this (also a Throwing Axeman who uses the ax to attack in melee. Not xbox shaped fridges or pumpkin headed knights useless nonsense.

I agree with everything…

I’ve played a lot of games as Byzantines, played a lot of games vs Byzantines. Paladins are not made by them in 99% of scenarios.

If I want to raid as Byzantine I use archers-line or scout-line. While missing bloodlines sucks a bit, hussars still do a fine job of terrorizing villagers

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Ngl, as goofy and ahistorical as the memelukes are with the throwing scimitars, they’re also kinda classic at this point IMO and i’m not sure i’d want to see them changed.

I guess maybe modify mamelukes and keep the old one in scenerio editor called “Memeluke” or something as a happy medium.


For a couple of the european civs it would be great if they could get an alternate upgrade path for the pike line, with +1 range. Spain in particular was famous for its pike and shot squares.

Castle age longbows should have +1 range, maybe some other stats being worse instead for them.

Some of the asian civs could have a replacement for the ballista with actual rocketry.

I have the conspiracy theory that there was someone in the Ensamble Studio team that really hates Pike and Shot, especially arquebus.
Making sure that pikeman are always awful in AoE (AoE2 and AoE3), only good against cavalry and nothing else so you can never use them as the main unit of your army like basically every army did in the Late Middle Ages/Early Modern era from Spain to Japan.
Arquebus aren’t even really in any AoE game besides a Chinese unique unit in AoE3 and some Mercenary and Minor civilisation unit.
This spirit somehow lives on in AoE4.

True… it’s like they wanted to skip the pike and shot period (1470-1660) at Ensemble Studios…

Should a Swiss civ ever happen, they’d be the best chance for an apology tour via a pike UU viable beyond countering (Reisläufer!). But yeah, the spear line’s role in play really doesn’t match high medieval/Renaissance military history.

Spears are for peasants. Nobles fight with Swords.

It would be nice to give Aztecs actual nahuatl voicelines. And give the Incas their own Andean architecture set since it isn’t even in the same continent as Mesoamerica. Maybe one day if they ever include another Andean civ like the Wari or Chimu they can use it too.