Why do pikes outrange musketeers and almost crossbows and are faster than both of them

was wondering this today. by pikes i mean azaps

4 Likes

Because they are broken and need range nerf.

4 Likes

Probably because ottoman used to be bad vs dragoons, with abus guns being an ineffective way to deal with massed dragoons compared to most skirmishers and it being easy to run ottoman around the map with it’s slow army of jan/abus.

Abus guns got buffed to a ridiculous level since then, both jan and abus got an extra combat card and even cav archers got the flight archery card so the azap isn’t needed at all. It’s just a broken unit given to an already OP and overplayed civilization.

6 Likes

Azaps were a mistake.

10 Likes

TL;DR: the pikebow kills5/6 unit types because people cba to explore anything thats not easy to use.

Well im not an expert but I believe the civ called otto had something called a “weakness” you see, some players, evil players some would say, would simply use their tactics to exploit their civs strengths and delay the game until they could get a goon swarm rolling or spam units like cuir or tokala. It was hard but assuming some experience and relatively equal skill, a player could infact beat ottoman consistently with some civs. While most civs are designed around trade offs and the asymmetric design means this is part of the aoe3 experience to fight bad matchups, this was deemed unacceptable. Therefore, otto was finally given a salve to deal with this issue of sometimes not having an answer to a comp, you know like how it feels to fight cav archer abus now or jan abus? this is not a predicament otto should find itself in

So naturally the devs gave otto a very specific unit for these doomsday scenarios. a few patches ago it did it job well, ensuring that some port scrub who somehow lived through ff falc into wave after wave of sipahi without a single age3 merc cav couldnt dare ever slip the game away into the dreaded port sniper goon where otto after 25+ minutes of dictating the game is switched. With 18+ range, spear melee mode, and great animation and rof it did its job well. Lakota ports france and brits no longer could turn the tables in theory on the ottomans as they had traditionally. There was no way that wouldnt require constant outthinking the opposing ottoman players now for many civs

However, this scenario required something most aoe3 players hate: learning and applying things in a contextual sense. While strong, the azap had several weaknesses I mean problems. its macro was different, it didnt fit into most 2/3 unit comps otto likes and it did require some micro to get maximum milegage. So for about 3-4 patches otto mains decried this unit as “trash.” after all, if it couldn’t beat things outside of its counters why not just use abus? If you cant use something 100%, its 100% trash I am told. So while being extremely good in a few games here and there, the community said “nah its bad i dont use it most games its bad.” Despite nuking cav better than any unit before, it was not enough for many. So devs, who do listen to feedback, decided to lower some of its multipliers and increase its attack to that of an xbow. so now it has better stats of a pike or xbow, with very strong multipliers and mass and scalability and every single other buff given to it. On a civ that dictates tempo.

So that is why. If otto cant defeat age2 comps by building a monocomp unit in the blind it must be crap. Much like the humbaraci that despite being an incredible grenadier is considered bad cause abus exist and they CBA to admit maybe sometimes a fast anti cannon anti building gren is good; its apparently bad. Same with Cav archer/CA since it requires alot of pop. So was the old azap.

I hope this explains how we got here. Clearly, the community was right before and by some quirk of fate, a unit few bothered to test or evaluate got overbuffed somehow out of the blue i guess. Cause the only metric we use is valuing something against the other broken civs they face or see on streams at high level, everything else is “f tier crap bad useless no good.” until it is buffed to said op powerlevel. This in my short time in the aoe3 community I realized is the pattern we so often see because we are somehow supposedly simultaneous supreme judges and yet so often blind in regard to our meta.

Sorry for the winding exposition, and I hope this clears the air about why the pikebow must outdps goon, cav, musk, most age2 light infantry, siege, and kill vills ez pezy this patch. just like how we got the hakka patch, the giant grens of germany, a nizzam patch, spanish soldado patch, etc. mashallah icCci

P.S.- im still waiting for someone to pull a semi humbaraci timing on a stream and nuke some port/spanish/dutch player and people decide its broken.

8 Likes

Overbuffing Ottomans since that patch was a mistake.

2 Likes

Because azaps are more expensive than musketeers. Accept the fact and train crossbow!

the cost difference is very minimal

even if we weight it by gather rate it works out to

Musk - 75/0.84 + 25/0.6 = 130.952381
Azap - 55/0.84 + 35/0.5 = 135.4761905

for 5 weigted vil cost difference you are get 0.5 extra speed, the same range HP and extra range but less attack, that is one hell of a deal.

The coming nerf to cost will actually make it cost significantly more (145 weighted res) but even then being able to absolutely control engagements in age 2 due to range and speed is still pretty strong, they could just gain more range like (13->15->17-> 20)

2 Likes

They should never have 20 range 15 or 16 should be the maximum and Abus guns should be nerved into oblivion vs goons as long as Azaps fullfill the anti goon role like no other unit in the game.

2 Likes

I agree 20 range is way too much, they are not skirms. 15-16 range should be the max and with 4.5 speed, they should have no issue getting into range. Throw in some abus to counter the longer range goons like ww and port goons and otto will be fine.

2 Likes

The wood cost has got an increase in the new PUP and It is now 40wood. Wood cost increase is a lot for the ottoman economy. So I think that if you turtle against Ottomans, no matter what you lose. Especially if you train only musketeers like a super low elo player

I also noted the cost increase in the PUP, it goes to 145 weighted, it will be a significant increase sure.

The unit is however still able to control the battlefield since it has the same range as xbows and more speed, they can just walk away faster then the xbows can reload and send in the delis.

So if you dont make musks or pikes you are vulnerable to a deli switch, all the while the azaps provide backline support that cant be targeted by opposing xbow

Like xbows can barely fight against muskets in age 2 and they have 4 extra range against them, they have no hopes of fighting against a unit with equal range and higher speed.

Azaps will still be able to do its role of countering goon at 13-15 range, they just wont be able to counter xbows as well. edit: latergame I am still slightly more open to them having some amount of higher range

4 Likes

I like the design of Azap (a pike with a ranged attack), and I think it was a good addition.

But I think it should only be effective/profitable vs cav. It should not trade well with musks and even bows.
In addition to the fact that sublime port is a big problem with the rush azap (changes all food for 1.25 times of wood).

Things from bOttomans and OPomans…

Change my mind.

6 Likes

The biggest thing people skip here is that azaps are Heavy Infantry, not Light Infantry as skirms or crossbows. Thats why they have such unique design. If people realize that sooner, they will know how to counter them properly.

literally everyone knows that

4 Likes

how does that make make a difference regarding their ridiculous range?

be me, 200iq forum poster and decide to queue vs otto
realize that the azap is heavy infantry. so all i need is light infanty right??
put my xbow/skirms queued and into range
ahahha its a counter system, everyone else is dumb i shout and a z move to assured victory
opponent moves his azaps into melee
4.5 speed, 20% armor, higher attack in melee vs low damage slower units in melee oh god.
oh noes not again! but they are heavy infantry!!
I try to flee
3 deli snare
oh god thats right he aged up 30s or so faster he already has more army anyways they are everywhere
1rst_Battle_of_Klendathu.jpeg
the reinforcing batches continue to pour fire on me
otto goes to age3 behind this or booms off water

Damn, well despite many streams and experience and the fact we’ve seen azap win, someone said its heavy infantry so clearly its a personal failing cause no way in aoe3 would the counter system ever get broken. its not like jans famously shat on xbows for 10 years for the same reasons in RE right??

Epilogue: I mutter mashallah under my breathe while queuing the humbaraci vs my azap spammer next game. this time its personal :robot:

8 Likes
1 Like

then you agree that you are an amateur which cant defend against azap only attack with your musketeers and xbow combo. My words are not personal but to anyone who whines about it. I do not lose ‘only’ azaps and if u do, look for your own mistakes.

Also try to understand game logic, by nerfing something that you lose, you dont balance it properly but raise other questions.

Why does it bother you if azaps win several fights? Do they need to lose every time because they are ottomans? You need to accept the fact that ottos win rate is almost at 50-50 and this info doesnt lie unlike some whiners around.