Why does the Korean wood bonus not apply to Siege Weapons?

Hey guys,

do you have a good explanation for why the Korean wood bonus doesn’t apply to Siege weapons?
Portuguese have kind of the same bonus for gold, but that does apply to all units. One could say “the Koreans already have bonuses for Siege” but then again, so do the Portugese.
Besides that the Slavs and Italians (BBC only) do also have cheaper Siege units, so I don’t see a reason why Koreans are excluded there.

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I assume the devs were worried about 128W 135G SO with 2-10 range. On its own 20% is a reasonable balanced bonus but because this effect SO the rest of Korean siege has to suffer.

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Yeah, I was assuming kind of the same. I mean yes, Koreans do already have a pretty good late game, but in my eyes devs could try expanding the bonus to Siege units as well. Especially since it’s only wood and if you have the eco to research SO with SE+UT you might have enough wood to produce them either way, so I’d see this more as a Castle Age boost.

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I’m assuming you’re talking about Ensemble, because since then Korean Siege Onagers now have 1-9 range, so they’re not as good at being area-of-effect snipers, and many have considered the change to be a significant nerf.

The dust has settled so much that only a tornado would whip it up again, so I can see the Korean wood discount applying to siege weapons without much issue.

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It’s like the Malian wood discount which doesn’t work on farms and fish traps.
Even that doesn’t make sense. 51W farms is nowhere near 36W (Teuton ones) and 85W fish traps not even comparable to 67W of the Malay’s.

Balance I guess, but imho very bad “aesthetically”.

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would be insanely broken for Castle Age pushes, Crossbow spam with automatic +2 armor, cheap Mangonels to counter enemy Crossbows/buildings and long-term Castle drop and War Wagons potential.

Koreans have more than enough in terms of bonuses honestly. I’m not even sure they NEED the +2 armor on archers for free at all costs, +1 could be enough but w/e.

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I’m putting siege wood discount in the same box as the PA on Turks scouts. People will kneejerk theorise it’s too strong, when it isn’t even remotely

I think you’re over exaggerating a tiny bit…

Maybe consider wood income, and the actual discount on both units. Xbows isn’t even that much.

Siege is bottle necked by gold in that case, on top of the TT. I highly highly doubt you’re going to suddenly see Koreans of all civs suddenly dominating with “spammed” xbows :joy::joy::joy: nevermind mangos

Currently a large portion of Korean wins are due solely to the WW. You’re only Saving 5w per xbow (70res total) That’s nothing. Less than 10%. With no other eco bonus unless you’re fighting archer civs. Compare that to Mayans with not only a larger discount, more Vils and more of the faster Res income (deer boar) and a vastly better all round unit (eagle)

This is understandable at least, since the bonus is affecting so many things. It’s your entire base aside from castles. Unlike Koreans where not only is it a small bonus it affects very specific units. For example consider the actual discount on an xbow

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Good question I also wondered about. You might argue that would be op however cheaper siege gold wise (portuguese or slavs) is way better. Also koreans aren’t a top civ on any map so I wouldn’t mind applying the bonus to siege.

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nope Siege is bottlenecked by wood actually, you can always send 20+ to gold, wood in contrast is needed for EVERYTHING in Castle age and is the most valuable resource.

it’s not nothing, in % it’s a good saving. When you make 40+ Crossbows, you are saving easily a ton of wood. And then you are getting also 2nd armor upgrade for free. Koreans pure Crossbow play is definitely underrated, not a trash civ and definitely not “fully reliant on WWs”.

Its 1-10 I think, 8+2

Either way, I think it should, and also malian bonus should apply to farms

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Yeah as @Ifavorwining said it was probably made so Slavs SOs didnt get too overshadowed

Tbh since Mali lost their old gold bonus they probably would be fine getting their farns back

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I believe they even had the halberdier upgrade at that time!
Now they lost so much I really can’t believe sparing 9W on farms and 15W on fish traps would be overpowered.
It’s not top priority, but for consistency I’d like to see the wood discount applied to everything, for both Malians and Koreans.

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We have enough overlap between bonuses to add even more…
Malians are fine, and Koreans maybe, but nerfing the war wagon is a top priority.

111 right clearly the pros, who draft and pick this civ 100% of the time in tournaments are stupid because they never pick this civ :rofl: :rofl:

Koreans are just in a bad spot since like 2013, from tower rushing civ to just a semi archer civ that lack anything else aside from free armor upgrades (wood discount isn’t even that strong, I will say Portuguese gold discount is better), and even they aren’t popular on water, the only way to play this civ is to rush out a broken UU or else you lose.

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the fact that this civ isn’t a top tier pick at top level doesn’t mean it’s bad…

A lot of pro games revolve around killing that 1 extra vill in Feudal and gaining an advantage that way… something that doesn’t systematically happen even in 2k elo games…

So yes, at top level Koreans are “weak”. So is any other civ without a relevant eco bonus.

Idk I know people who complain they get lamed when they smurf against 1200s, despite the fact said 1200s got tons of idle time from microing their scout and probably harmed more than helped themselves in the process. Maybe some people care about stuff happening below pro level…

More seriously the wood bonus is likely worse at low levels because when you’re routinely floating wood all game long saving almost nothing on archers is useless.

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#1. There’s a significant overlap with the Slavic siege bonus. Look at it this way… they have Siege Onagers that are better and even have a wood discount.

#2. Giving the Celts a wood discount for Siege would actually put their Siege almost S tier… along with Mongols, Celts and Ethiopians. They’ll pretty much be the only top tier siege civilization with Bombard Cannon and Bombard Tower.

Most of the Siege heavy civilizations tend to lack both of these. Teutons got above average siege. So, they’re not to be considered here.

#3. I believe this will kind of um, powercreep Italian Bombard Cannons? Italian Bombard Cannons don’t get Siege Engineers but Korean ones do… wood discount + siege engineers > wood + gold discount… in the long run

Not the case with Italian cannon galleons because Italians get cheap dock dock techs.

#4. I think giving it to Koreans would be cool but could also be OP. Also, it does not make sense to deny their Trebuchets of this bonus. Maybe they could make it like "Military units (except Siege workshop units) cost -20% wood… rather than Siege units.

You risk making the Slavic siege discount irrelevant until they get Heavy Scorpion and Siege Ram. You end up making the Italian Bombard Cannon discount irrelevant.

If you implement this, Koreans can totally be an archer, gunpowder, siege, tower and naval civilization.

How they are a gunpowder civilization:
Hand Cannoneers benefit from free armor techs, Cannon galleons cost -20% wood (shipwright available), Turtle ship (gunpowder unit), Bombard Tower is free (requires chemistry) (and used to build faster… and had access to treadmill crane)

I think a year or two ago, they had Elite Cannon galleon added to their tech tree as well.

Imagine this also applying to the Bombard Cannon. I would say that their Gunpowder would be on par with some Gunpowder civilizations like the Spanish, Portuguese and Italians.

Except for the Turks and the Bohemians, I can’t think of a civilization with better Bombard Cannons (don’t forget they get siege engineers) in this scenario.

Italians get cheaper chemistry, cheaper bombard tower tech. Turks get free chemistry and 50% cheaper bombard Tower tech. Koreans literally get bombard tower for free.

Spanish ones build faster
Byzantine ones have more HP (but lack masonry, architecture… and treadmill crane)
Chinese ones have more HP and lack treadmill crane

The result would be that you can outclass more than half the ‘gunpowder civilizations’ at their supposed strength

Portuguese have a gold discount on Bombard cannons, have siege engineers (which, alongside Chemistry, which unlock bombard cannon, is researched faster) and Arquebus.

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All true
#1. Arquebus is pretty useless these days. You should have seen it in the old days… like back in 2015-Jan 2017… when it was OP

700 food, 400 gold for that is a joke. The gold discount on units is good, though.

#2. That faster researching bonus is OK… but more like a wildcard bonus the devs threw in.
#3. Portuguese are low tier on land maps.

#4. Overall, Koreans actually have better gunpowder… except that the Portuguese have feitorias… for towers.

Turtle ships with shipwright and wood discount.
Free Bombard Tower
Free armor techs for the Hand Cannoneer (small bonus)

Portuguese Cannon galleons get Carrack, Arquebus, gold discount but no shipwright.
Hand Cannoneers and Bombard Cannons get a gold discount + arquebus + siege engineers (not for hand canoon).

Arquebus is hardly a big deal… wouldn’t really help unless they got it at 350 food, 200 gold instead of their current price.

I agree, Koreans should get their wood discount extended to all units. The reason it didn’t apply to their siege in the first place was probably because of balance considerations that no longer apply.

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