Why doesn't Ethiopia get Halberdiers for free anymore?

Yes because it’s a civ that relies on cheap units. Cheap units means upgrades make a proportionally large amount of overall cost (especially the expensive halb upgrade) which in turn means upgrades shouldn’t be free. Otherwise the power spike is too large.

Why you claim then that the UT isn’t good? Ofc SO is expensive but so is TE. It’s a tech that is for late game closed maps. And in these scenarios you do see halb SO reasonably often. Ofc it’s not common on arabia but that’s beyond the point as SO is not an arabia unit (ie torsion engines is not an arabia tech).

Bbc counters skirms which is the natural counter to arb halb. That’s why bbc is extremely important as ethiopians oftentimes and bigger blast radius makes huge difference vs skirms.

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It just isn’t that great, man, I’m sorry to tell you this. Having even one extra range is way more noticeable.

But the issue is that Ethiopians don’t get any other bonuses. Other civs get cheaper units, they get eco bonuses, etc. Ethiopia doesn’t have these, at all, but they get free stuff when they age up so the idea is to use your power spikes. There’s nothing stopping other civs (Byzantines, Britons) with better combat and eco bonuses and better unique units from just going into the same arb-halb (or longbow-halb in Britons’ case) comp late game and just becoming a better ethiopia if they so desire, at that point. There’s no way Ethiopia would ever beat either of these civs with the same comp, but if they got a free upgrade they could get there faster and try to win that way.

I didn’t say it was bad, I just said it wasn’t necessarily the best since it only really helps the mangonel line. It can be useful in these situations. But again it’s going to seem a lot better if your opponent doesn’t actually know how to do split micro.

…What? Since when does BBC counter skirms? This is news to me.

You’re underestimating faster firing rate. I’m pretty sure most people would favour Mongol arbs over Khmer arbs. Heck in actual games it’s not rare to see players chilling with arbs that have only +1 armour but had thumb ring since late castle.

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I mean I genuinely have no idea since I really don’t see either of those civs going into arbalests, but if I had to choose I would say it’s definitely more viable for Khmer especially given that they get access to halberdiers

Reason why you don’t see both civs going arbalests is because Khmer often go Hussar+Scorpion, and Mongols go for Mangudai + Hussar.

+1 range might be more noticeable, but the faster firing rate is nothing to joke about. If you were correct, people would be agreeing with you, rather than everyone pointing out how it’s actually a good bonus. Try using a bit more maybe. There’s a reason people have compared Ethiopian archers to machine guns.

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When you learn unit formations, micro and to fight against cavalry units, you’ll see how powerful it is. 18% faster fire rate on archer-line is quite a lot. Simulated battles are a bad way to understand units because AI doesn’t play like human players do (no micro, hits and run every single unit in a scattered way and so on.) Its the 2nd best bonus for archers after Britons.

You obviously are seeing everything from against AI or 1 siege vs a big bunch of units perspective. Torsion engines affects all siege and their canons, scorps are quite strong too. Their onagers are super powerful and even fast units can’t escape their blast radius sometimes.

Vietnamese, Bohemians are super slow turtle civs. Usually players push to late imp with these civs. Ethiopians are played as an aggressive civ with their 100f,g extra per age. So its not an apples to apples comparison with those civs.

There are only 6 civs which get some free bonus for foot archers - Britons, Ethiopians, Mayans, Saracens, Vietnamese, Magyars. Of these Ethiopians bonus is the 2nd best.

Maybe like MikeEmpires youtube guy u did some scenario editor tests with like 10 or 15 units against extreme AI and came to this conclusion. But in practice with hit and run, Ethiopian archer line get so much more value.

Nowadays they wouldnt look op anymore with all the op civs around :smiley:

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  1. not a real argument
  2. pro players don’t really agree with you guys either. Very few top players actually think it’s a strong bonus, ask any of them. The bonus doesn’t perform well in simulated fights and it can’t be anything but worse in real games where it’s basically impossible to make 100% full use of it if you’re microing properly.

This is exactly what I’m saying. Even if you gave them this bonus they still wouldn’t really be the best civ in the game on any map. Turks, Burgundians and Bohemians would still be better on Arena. Gurjaras, Chinese and the like would still be better on Arabia.

Why would they get more value with hit and run? That makes no sense at all. Maybe you’re confused and you think they get bonus move speed or extra attack damage or, you know, something that would actually be conducive to hitting and running? If anything, faster fire rate would get even less value in a real game and in hit and run situations than it does in a simulated fight, since you won’t be making full use of it in a real game where some of the time you’ll be moving, retreating, focus firing, etc. A simulated archer battle is literally the best possible way to set up a scenario in which this bonus would perform well, and it still doesn’t.

Yeah but this is the thing, the bonus this thread is about- the one I’m saying they should get back- would only help in Imperial Age. And even if they got this bonus it wouldn’t make them a better civ for the arena-type, turtle-and-wait-for-imp playstyle than those other civs. Other civs like Turks and Bohemians would still be better on turtle maps. There are certain civs that are weak on some maps but stronger on others in such a way that you can’t really buff them without making them broken on the maps where they’re strong. Bohemians are like this, they’re not great on Arabia but you can’t buff them to where they would be good on Arabia without making them completely, oppressively broken on Arena, where they’re already probably a top five or even top three civ. Ethiopia is not the best civ on any map and they still wouldn’t be the best civ on any map even if they got Halberdier for free like they used to.

Well, actually it’s the third or arguably fourth best out of those, since the Mayan cheaper cost means that they will out trade Ethiopians every time in terms of resource efficiency (especially with plumes) and will likely just have more units late game since they get them for cheaper. And like I said, the Vietnamese bonus actually performs better in equal number archer vs archer fights, plus it also applies to other range units besides archers which the ethiopian bonus does not. but you can certainly argue that since the Vietnamese bonus doesn’t help them kill enemy units and vils faster in cases where you are crushing the fight anyway it’s still worse on the whole. And then the other two have other combat bonuses to units besides archers anyway. But you can’t compare the civs just based on that alone anyway. You have to look at them holistically. Ethiopians have a very niche unique unit, a very predictable late game comp, and no eco bonuses besides the 200 extra resources at the start of each age. I’m not saying that all these other civs are better than Ethiopia or that they’re the weakest in the game, or even close- surely some of those other ones like Vietnamese could also use some buffs, but I am saying that even with the free halb upgrade they used to get Ethiopia still wouldn’t be the strongest civ in the game on any map currently in the ranked pool, let alone overpowered. So I don’t know why they took that bonus away. And without that bonus they kind of lose their identity as a civ that is designed to play around power spikes at the start of every age.

Actually I would say it seems like you are seeing it from a vs AI perspective on this one. I personally don’t ever play vs AI except to practice new builds. The odds that you will actually get much value out of the extra blast radius on scorpions against good players is extremely low. No real person would bunch their units up that closely. And it’s not completely useless for the bccs but like i said earlier, it doesn’t fit with what they’re normally used for, which is sniping other siege units and sieging structures like castles. Mangonel/onager line is by far the most likely to actually get value out of torsion engines, but even then it is somewhat diminished with proper split micro and it’s obviously gonna seem better against bots than it really is. Obviously if you are just playing against bots it will seem a lot stronger than it really is against players. It’s not a weak unique tech, because it definitely is valuable for the mangonel line, but it’s not incredibly strong either. And considering the other one they get is complete buns, well…

The “other civs are more OP” argument doesn’t hold too much because 1-gurjaras and hindustanis will get the nerf stick and 2-they are good because of different kind of bonuses, not free techs. Sure if a civ was allowed to have free xbow/arbs or free cav armour with full stable or something the argument would make sense, but having Ethiopian civ win against say Persians cuz Gurjaras and Hindustanis are winning thx to entirely different bonuses doesn’t make much sense.

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No, then it gets better. I’m not sure how it’s so hard to understand. If you fire faster, you get your shot off before the enemy can. Therefore, you arrow is in the air sooner, and you can move backwards quickly. Because you can then move out of their range, they can’t shoot you, and as soon as they come back into range, you shoot them again. If you’re microing properly, the bonus gets better, because it’s literally an advantage over the enemy. Even in a simulated fight it should be decent, they are literally reloading almost 20% faster, which by extension is a pretty solid damage buff.

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You do torsion engine scorps in late imp against infantry civs. So it gives value and makes ur scorps more pop efficient in many situations as its a macro game at that point. Suppose you’re trying to treb down an enemy castle at one place with some shotels and opp has a bunch of elite eagles or huskarls and tries to snipe those trebs. The torsion engine scorps would weaken more units and make it easier for shotels to clean up and u might be able to protect the trebs.

You can also spread out scorps to hit along multiple directions. If you assume everyone micros army perfectly against siege all the time in an ideal way, onagers and scorps would never get value. In practice these units and techs are valuable in late imp when big groups of armies fight.

Bots micro every single unit. Its actually against bots that these might seem weaker than they actually are which is why I thought u tested these against bots.

Obviously its not Flemish, Chivalry, Yeomen, Hauberk or El Dorado but it certainly its somewhere in between and not at the bottom and is not totally useless like medical corps.

When you hit and run, cavalry isn’t able to surround your ranged units and hence only some of the cavalry are actually doing damage, rest of the melee just collide and try to find their way. I suggest you watch this:
I suggest u watch this:

The amount of time u need to move before u can hit attack move is considerably lower with Ethiopians. Again as you learn the game you’ll learn how powerful rate of fire bonus is on ranged units.

In simulated battles u won’t be microing at all whereas u will be microing in early and mid-game to get more value from your military.

The thing is, Ethiopians is a fast and aggressive civ with which u can get castle age early, get good damage in early castle age with their power spike and then with less eco hit imp fast with less eco. So they don’t do halb upgrade first. They invest in arbs, chemistry, bracer, some trebs, more ranges etc. Currently civs counter that by playing longer in castle age, raiding with light cav to prevent the Ethiopian player from expanding, sniping early trebs or canons with knights and buying time for themselves to build defensive castles to protect from Arbalest raids till imp. If you give them free halbs, they can defend against raids or protect siege very easily. Knight aggression will also be an ineffective counterplay.

Who exactly thinks that faster firing archers isn’t a strong bonus? Basically after 1.5 hrs of game, when siege onagers, canons, paladins, elephants are out, 18% faster rate on arbs isn’t the best bonus for Ethiopians. Otherwise its super good and they’re one of the best civs to make archer-line.

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a false statement and a lie

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Ok, so archer units in this game have a 0.35s frame delay. Assuming it lapses 18% faster with this bonus (which I’m not even sure it does), you shave 0.05 seconds off of that. You can start moving 0.05 seconds faster after issuing the attack command.
Are you really trying to tell me that’s a good bonus? That’s what I’m missing out on in my analysis? Those 0.05 seconds are crucial? Like, you can’t be serious. Just admit you’re wrong at this point.

Yeah, and it’s not. That’s my whole point. It should be, and yet it’s still not. Hence why it’s fair to conclude it’s a weak bonus.

Ok, what about Mayans and Britons? Are they getting nerfed anytime soon? They would also still just be better archer civs than Ethiopia even with this buff.