Why I don't like the Mayan's new UT

Just to clarify.
In the sentence you quoted i didnt sayed “early Castle”, but in the sentence right above I sayed “…the only reason tog et a fast Castle…” which shows i was talking about early Castles in this Post. Also I was talking about a forward SW for Mangos to pressure TCs, which you normaly only do in Castle Age as well.
So I can see that you might missunderstand it if you read the Sentence without the Context of the entire Post, but in the context it was never about Imperial Age, but early to mid Castle Age.
I could have mentioned the time again, but the Post was already super long so i tried to cut out unneeded words, so sorry if this might have helped.

You say it dont matters because they never run out of Gold, but they can run out of Gold, in which case the new Tech is amazing.
On the other Hand Obsidian Arrow was not needed at all in a normal Game. It was to much of an investment to rush it (as explained before, because you get a Castle only for the Tech) and in Imp when you have a Castle you dont need it, because you can just get Siege Rams or Trebs instead for the Resources, which are much better at taking down Enemy fortifications with small loses.

-Lithuanian SKirms arent better in Skirm vs Skirm, because normal Skirms have less Dmg then Pierce Armor, which means they already negated by Pierce Armor. Lithus additional Pierce Armor does nothing against Skirms. For some reason Skirms deal 4 Dmg to each other, when it should be 5 (they have +4 Bonus vs Archer, which is uneffected by Armor, but their Base Dmg which is less then the Enemy Pierce Armor should deal 1 Dmg, because every Attack deals 1 Dmg when the enemy Armour would reduce the Attack below 1. It seems the normal Attack of Skirms does 0 Dmg and only the Bonus Dmg gets trough)
Vietnamese are only a bit better if they are Imperial Skirms, because Imperial Skirms deal 5 instead of 4 Dmg (same Dmg as Mayan Skirms) but have more HP.
Also Mayans dont need to have the best Skirms now to have a strong Tech. The fact they have some of the absolute best in the Game now is good enough to call it a strong tech.

Also Mayans are already op with Gold, which is why I still say a buff to their weakest possible phase (no Gold) compared to a Tech which was either completely all in Castle Age or not needed at all, is a Buff to an already dominant Civ.

Mayans are the most difficult civ to run out of Gold with, in the whole game.
Not only do their resources last longer, but their main Gold units are heavily discounted.

What is this argument dude. Its like saying if you are a safe driver a safty belt is useless in your Car. It wont be op in every Game, but it will have situations in which it will make the Civ Significant stronger, and you will be able to smothly transition into these situations.
An advantage Obsidian Arrow never had, because you either rushed it in Castle Age, which meant you are totally all in or you dont get it at all, because in Imp to get a few Trebs or Siege Rams instead of the Tech is much more effective at taking out enemy Castles.

You know that the secondary projectile is extremely inaccurate and only does 1 damage on a hit, right? They might be better than Generic, but only slightly and at the cost of upgrading a UT. The cost of the UT may very well never pay itself off if this is a trash war. You’re giving up multiple siege rams for this tech.

In no universe is this change a buff. I’m alright with nerfing the Mayans, the Mayans were quite good, I just wanted the tech to be something more interesting if it needed to be changed and I certainly didn’t want another meso skirm tech.

A second projectile with 1 Dmg is betetr then 1 additional Dmg, bcs in cases in which the enemy would get 1 Dmg, he now get 2 (Double), and bcs Skirms Attack is pretty low there are quite some cases for it, like for Example against Cav, Siege (even buildings) and basicly any Unit with more then 2 Pierce Armor now gets DOUBLE the Dmg (bcs Skirms have 3 Dmg)

Ofc not al of them hit the main Target, but it doesnt matters. Its an Post Imp Trash war Tech, in which you fight in big Groups of 80 vs 80, which means that most missed shots hit another Unit nearby.

I explained multiply times now in detail that, and why exactly its a Buff to Mayans Late Game, but if you dont listen to me, then you might maybe listen to Hera:
https://youtu.be/qtpLRjO_fwA?t=2075 (he talks about them from the Timestamp on until the End, and he basicly says a lot of the things I already sayed in this Discussion over the last few Days)


To be fair I think you can take out a castle with 120 of pretty much any unit you want to use with few losses, mayan skirms just taking it out twice as fast so about half as many losses to castle fire as any other generic skirms, you would probably take that castle out pretty fast with 120 sapper researched villagers or even 120 halberdiers with arson too and even spanish archers could do it if there were 120 of them

With 120 Halbs or Hussars you will lose many more of them, since they are Melee, and cannot all attack the Castle at once.

Hul’che Javalineers actually doubles Skirm damage against any building, from 1 to 2, and that is very significant on a Ranged unit that can efficiently stack attacks on targets.

It is not as strong as Obsidian Arrows, and I think they could give Supplies back to Mayans, which already miss Champion, but it is still a great UT.

I know you will lose more, just saying that achieving the castle being gone is not unexpected with that quantity of units, saracen archers will remove the castle faster but nobody thinks that their team bonus is broken or even very strong -edit- and they get it for free

Well, the Saracens Archers actually lost +2 damage vs Buildings, and were significantly nerfed.

They are, however, the only actual Siege Archers in the game, currently, and still good vs non-defensive buildings and Pallisade-House walls.

If you try Saracens Arbs vs Castles, however, you will lose a lot more resources than the Castle player.

Depends how many you have and if they researched murder holes or not(for melee), 650 stone is not cheap to lose and is probably worth slightly more than 650 gold is(or you would see many people selling their stone instead of using it), you could lose up to 20 archers and still take a trade that is in your favor(but I don’t think people get a mass of 120 archers very frequently so that is not going to happen in many games)

I had a bit of trouble counting but it looks like he lost 5 or 6 skirmishers there dealing 240 damage per volley, normal skirmishers you would lose maybe 11-12 of them doing the same thing with the same numbers and would take about a minute instead of about 30 seconds to kill the castle, idk that video said more to me that massed skirmishers are effective against castles than that the double javelin tech is very strong, chu ko nu and kipchaks both get more than 2 projectiles and I rarely see anyone using them as pseudo siege weapons, admittedly they cost gold but so do siege rams and trebs and you’re going to lose a few of those taking a castle too if the other person isn’t sleeping or taking a restroom break - but I definitely saw plenty of people using mayan archers as siege and did it myself several times, I wouldn’t use the skirmishers against buildings even with the bonus projectile

Also video is too blurry for me to tell if that castle has hoardings - if it doesn’t you’re probably not going to get as much out of these skirmishers since you wouldn’t probably be using them in mass numbers in castle age while you still have gold, I know I don’t see a + value by the castle’s attack and I assume the skirms have full armor upgrades because they have chemistry, so he is losing less than he would in a real match too which could be impacting the destroy time on the castle just as much as not having hoardings since they aren’t dying as fast

120 Skirms with double projectiles should deal 240 damage per volley, since they normally deal 1 damage a shot, and now they have 2 shots, both of which must deal at least 1 damage in this engine (cannot deal below 1 damage, no matter the Armour type of the target).

They were actually dealing more, however, since he had a Saracens ally.

Ah I knew there was something going on there, also I increased quality, the castle is missing all upgrades, it has 4800 hp, it would have 7000+ hp if it had upgrades and take almost twice as long to kill as well just from that, I didn’t mean from the extra armor it gives just the hitpoints, plus the fletching line upgrades and chemistry I think exceed the pierce armor on skirms with castle attack so it would kill them faster as well and lead to a much worse exchange for the skirms

It would still go down quickly, even if it had all upgrades, to 240 damage a volley. Hul’Che Javalineers Skirms are good against buildings now, if massed to great amounts.

Then again, 120 Skirms is a lot, most games you will have around 40, because you will have to use other units too.
Still, 80 damage per volley is good enough to take out Towers and production buildings.

They were dealing 4x120=480 damage per volley. But who makes 120 skirmishers in a 1v1 game let alone team game just because you are Mayans with Saracens ally?

I still wonder how many Mayans and Saracens skirmishers is needed to take down a castle (all types of castles - 4800 HP to 7028 HP) so that skirmishers barely win.

In a 1v1 game it is very unlikely, but in a team game it actually does make sense that a team member is focusing on counter units, and you can reliably see one player go for 80-120 Skirms, depending on their economy.
Since Mayans get a big discount to Archery Range units, they can actually cut down on Vills and get 120 Skirms in a Team Game.

In 1v1, if you go for 120 Skirms, you will be crushed by Hussars + Skirms from the opponent.

All trash units are mostly 1v1 units.

And in TG, you will be crushed by Paladins. Although Mayans will deal 2 damage (if secondary projectile lands on the target) to Paladins instead of 1, Paladin will just slaughter skirmishers.

Why do they have to skirmishers in Team Game when they have one of the best if not the best archers in game?

Not if your ally is Saracens, like in this scenario. Heavy Camels with Zealotry eat Teuton or Frank Paladins for breakfast.

They may be facing an Archer civ, and Skirms train super quick.

Good point but still it is not practical to go for skirms in TG unless this new UT together with new Saracens change (They will be picked as TG pocket most of the time from now instead of flank) makes it a new meta.