They dont have HC and BBC, their fire lancer are average (no gambesons, ok bonus) and arent that gunpowder. They dont have cannon galleon. They do have good BBT though. Their rocket carts are ok with the increased damage but no siege engineers makes them average.
Why are they classified as a gunpowder civilization? Is it to further differentiate themselves from the 3k civs which have 0 gunpowder.
Give Chinese hand cannon and problem solved. If Chinese needs to get bombard, please remove chu ko nu anti-ram ability at least.
Sorry i meant to say they should just remove the label back to archer civiilization or better yet, call them a generalist civ.
Giving HC is ok, they’d never give them bbc since onager line is the traditional counter to them.
I’m sick of seeing their endless sneaky attempts to alter the original civilization. They should just get back their original label.
They shouldn’t get hand cannoneer either.
Meanwhile Koreans have (I think) the most gunpowder units of any civ, including one unique unit, one affected by a unique tech, two with bonuses, plus a bonus for Bombard Towers… and still aren’t labelled as a gunpowder civilisation.
Here’s how I would change the in-game Chinese civ:
First of all, I wouldn’t add Rocket Cart or Lou Chuan to the game. I know that Chinese civ having them would be historically more accurate and cooler, but in terms of functionality I don’t think they are that different from the units they’re supposedly replacing (Mangonel line and Cannon Galleon), hence from a pure gameplay perspective they can be omitted. Same thing for the Dragon Ship, it’s basically a Fire Ship with different graphics, hence won’t be added.
Secondly, I’ll remove the Camel Rider line, same as what the devs did.
They would have access to the Fire Lancer at the Siege Workshop in Castle Age. My version of the Fire Lancer is completely different from the official version. Instead of a pikeman with a charged attack, my version is a siege infantry that would spew out flames just like a Fire Ship, and it would have bonus attacks against Stone Defense, Building, and Siege Weapon, whereas being relatively weak against anything else.
Fire Lancer Stats
And to fill the anti-cavalry void left by removing the Camel Rider, they would be getting a unique regional upgrade to the Pikeman in Imperial Age, called Paper Armored Pikeman, which they share with Vietnamese as well as my proposed civs Bo/Baipu and Chams. The upgrade cost would be slightly cheaper than a Halberdier, only costing 250 Food and 550 Gold, and the research time would also be slightly shorter at 40 seconds. They would have the same HP and one less melee attack than a Halberdier, and having slightly lower attack bonuses against Cavalry, Camel Rider, and War Elephant but slightly higher attack bonuses against Ship, Fishing Ship, and Eagle Warrior. They have a few specialties: first their speed would be 1.05 instead of 1, secondly their range would be 0.5, and thirdly and arguably the most special one is that they would only receive 60% of damage from ranged or pierce attacks. For instance a Hand Cannoneer would normally deal 17 pierce attack (+10 bonus attack) against infantry units, but against a Paper Armored Pikeman it would only deal 10 pierce attack (+10 bonus attack).
In terms of appearance this unit would be wearing a Chinese style kettle hat with tassels on top plus a suit of paper armor with layered paper scales, and would be using a slightly longer bamboo pike.
Paper Armored Pikeman Stats
And now that we have the White Feather Guard, I feel that the Chinese could have access to this unit in Imperial Age at their Castle. It needs to be renamed Jinjun (Imperial Army or Imperial Guard) and its appearance needs to be changed to better fit the medieval Chinese setting (like have it wearing a full body suit of lamellar armor). It would still be a slow-moving infantry unit wielding a large shield and a halberd, would have high HP and can regenerate, though low attack and low attack bonuses. The snare effect could be kept though not obligatory.
And with these changes, the Chinese would be considered an Archer and Infantry civ instead of Archer and Gunpowder. Their late game army composition would be the Jinjun in the front as meat shield, Chu Ko Nu in the back firing volleys of arrows at the enemy, Fire Lancers to deal with enemy siege and fleet-footed Paper Armored Pikemen to deal with enemy cavalry.
Yeah im not calling for new units. except maybe hc. but arent you the guy that wants to change turks?
They are the one that changed the Turks by messing the Janissary-Hand cannoneer balance which was perfectly fine before.
Calling a spearman and a mangonel “gunpowder” is really lame. I would wish Chinese get HC / BBC, at least Siege Engineers.
Not even a spearman really. The unit acts like a sort of quasi-infantry with a bonus vs cavalry. No real need to train the militia line when you have them.
So you would still compare them with infantry, not gunpowder.
Yes, with a gunpowder-related charge ability. I wasn’t disagreeing with you on that, just with the comparison to a spearman.
Dont turn this thread into your Turk spam trolling as well
There are so many gunpowder civs, like Turks, Spanish, Italians etc lack Siege Engineers.
Rams+ arbalest should withstand vs chu ko nu+ rocket cart/scorpions if Chinese gets BBC. Or make Chinese lose Cavalier upgrade/ Bloodlines as Saracens.
They don’t need that because Chu Ko Nus are supposed to be their high damage archer unit vs Infantry (that even got buffed now that Elite Upgrade finally gives a worth upgrade with +2 attack), and we’ll know how stupidly strong is a large Post-Imp Elite Chu Ko Nu mass, and why Halb + Onager still needs to be a viable army vs Chinese, its a very defined weakness (for that reason they don’t need BBCs and why they losr Redemption when Block Printing was introduced).
For the same reason Georgians, the most aggressive civ in the game is classified as “Defensive” civilization. The in game classification has no meaning.
I rarely see a post-imp CKN mass, while halb onager happens much more often. It’s more of a problem of onager for Chinese to worry about, than CKN for others to worry about. Ideally every civ should have counter to every single unit.
This is a nerf. Previously you really only need Rocketry to get the same +2 attack, for almost half the price. CKN elite upgrade was one of the worst bang for the buck, and even increased the reload time effectively. Now you have to get elite.
The elite upgrade alone is less than the combined price of the elite upgrade + rocketry. Same is true for rockery So the overall upgrade cost is reduced if you only need one tech. But if you want to get rocketry (for say, your rocket carts) and elite Chu Ko Nu, you really will be shelling out. The elite upgrade is expensive even for an elite upgrade (and that’s after the discount).
Basically, it’s only more expensive if you want to get the upgrades for both rocket carts (or other rocket units) and chu ko nus. If you’re only getting the techs for one, it’s cheaper. But it’s still expensive.
Do you realize how shit the elite upgrade was? 1600 resources for +5 hp, -3 training time, and WORSE reload time. It should have stayed the same price.
I agree that its the most foolish classification. Archer and Defensive civilization or Archer and Naval civilization might be more appropriate.