Why not make the Hospitallers in Barbarossa 5 Armenians?

I know that the Teutons seem like an obvious choice to represent the Hospitallers, but they’re present in (I think) what’s supposed to be Cilician Armenia, unless the outro takes place some time after winning the scenario. The Goksu River, then known as the Saleph (and as a side note, the in-game outro should be changed to the correct historical term), was where Barbarossa drowned, and that was in Cilician Armenia. The outro doesn’t mention this at all, but it’s a cool fact that really should be reflected in-game.

Plus, the castle you travel to in-game is supposed to represent an Armenian castle next to the Saleph, so having the Armenians there instead of the Teutons would make a lot of sense.


It’s Barbarossa 5 you’re referring to I think. Wouldn’t make much of a difference but yes, I thought something similar about Franks representing Gaul in Attila 5 (the grey neutral player). They should be either Romans or Celts. Franks don’t make sense in 451 as they haven’t invaded Gaul yet.

Correct. I’m not used to old campaigns having 6 scenarios.

I was actually thinking of Barbarossa’s March, the 5th scenario, where the Hospitallers only appear as an ally to reach, with no actual fighting done on their part. Switching it to Armenians would be a mere flavor change with no gameplay impact.

Oh. I clearly didn’t remotely read your post, I saw Armenians, interpreted Thoros, and got stuff wrong from there 11.

Hospitallers should be French. The closest the game has for the French is Franks

In Attila 4, Orleans should be Alan (Huns represent Alans in the next scenario) and Metz should be Roman (Byzantines if you want to give more flavor to the scenario)

The game should add a templar and hospitaller units to the editor we already have a teutonic crusader knight.


Possibly Celts (Gauls) for Metz, the ultimate dark age placeholder civ given how vague it is. Byzantines are in the eastern half of the empire.

Um weren’t the Hospitallers French knights?

The Hospitaller’s headquarters were in Rhodes at the time, or maybe it was Jerusalem. Whatever the location, their headquarters were not in Armenia.

No, but the base in the scenario IS in Cilician Armenia, because that’s where Barbarossa died.

Apologies for being yet another naysayer in this thread, but I’m pretty confused by this suggestion.

The main body of water in this scenario is surely the Sea of Marmara. I realise that AoE2 scenario maps are highly figurative, and the scale and geography are often very off, but even so, Cilicia seems to me to be way off the map. The Hospitallers are in north-west Anatolia – perhaps roughly in the location of Bursa, although I don’t suppose it’s intended to be anywhere specific.

But even if the Hospitallers were in Cilicia, why would that make them Armenians? By that logic, Barbarossa should be Byzantines in this scenario, because he starts in the Byzantine Empire. I think I must be missing something here…

I’m pretty sure this is what I’d always assumed, even when I originally played the scenario as a teenager and had no idea where Barbarossa died or any real knowledge of Anatolian geography. There isn’t a river on the map near the Hospitallers, and you march past several bodies of water during the last section of the scenario. The Hospitallers even have a source of water inside their walls – so the river in question must be a fair distance from the end of the scenario.

I don’t agree with this, either. I don’t see how using the modern name of the river is “incorrect”, even in a historical context.

From the wiki:

The Hospitaller castle is likely a reference to Silifke Castle near the river where Barbarossa drowned. However, the castle was owned at the time by Leo I of Armenia. He gave it to the Hospitallers in 1210.

Barbarossa’s death was June 10, 1190
Since the The Mountain Royals was announced, I was wishful thinking that the Armenians would be added to this scenario.

How I would have changed it, is to add another player, Cilicia Armenians. The castle and other stone structure would be Armenians, while the tents stay Hospitallers.

That means that there is no need to re-record audio. Even historical speaking the Hospitallers should not be there yet.
The only gameplay change would be that the Player get also the Armenian Team Bonus.

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Notice that Franks represent the French.