Will Ayyubids get some love

A while ago I made a thread on how to make some improvments to Ayyubids to make them more historically accurate listed here:

A dev recently mentioned in a interview I beileve with Beastyqt before the dlc, that the Joan of Arc variant civ would be receiving some changes to make them less like the standard French. I hope Ayyubids get some of this treatment as well, whilst they are different gameplay wise from Abbasid with a more agressive or fc style, Id still really like to see some cosmetic changes. I go more in depth on my previous post, but to summarize the biggest changes id like to see, I suggested the House of wisdom is changed to the Cairo citadel (still functions the same just a different look) as the Ayyubid powerbase was in Cairo not Baghdad, and also to change camel lancers to Mamluks. As well as possibly removing gulham to leave them as a uu for Abbasid, and giving them a unique archer.

Ayyubids are fine and got some action in the tournament. English, OTD, and ottoman are the ones in a true struggle right now.

The meta involves horses at every stage of the game in at least half of the army pop with the exception of lancaster, who we saw also make 80% pop of hobblers in this tournament.

OTD has the worse knight that comes out at 9 min soonest
Ottoman loses a lot by spending wood on saraphi who suck vs horsemen.
English is ousted by the powercreep of HOL and KT who have more $$ in a camp game

Yeah - hard to see why Ayyubids need anything. They are a fundamentally different civ to play than Abbasid.
You can ask for some aesthetic/name changes I guess - but don’t see it mattering that much.

The complaints about Jeanne d’Arc are that the civ is essentially just “France where you’ve sacrificed villager production rate for a hero unit”. They have the same landmarks and the same units (Jeanne gets her champions but they aren’t “instead of” anything, so aren’t really faction defining). The civs function essentially the same as a result. Whether that’s trying to raid to death with knights, or booming with multiple TCs.

How far they go remains to be seen - because I suspect removing say “French Knights” from Jeanne would prompt a riot. But I suspect they’ll trade out at least 3, maybe all 6 landmarks for something new.

Yes, anything is possible… I would give 2 more UU to the Abbasids and at the very least, they should also give them to the Ayyubids…

As my post implies more talking about cosmetic changes, balance wise I like playing Ayyubids. Just feels weird since they dont have much that is actually “Ayyubid” historically.

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As the post says this is much more about cosmetic changes, to actually make them Ayyubid.

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“Te comprendo” (I think the same). Bella Capela said something similar about Cairo, that Ayyubid has the capital in that city, and Bagdad wasn´t in their control.

I’m going to talk about this, but first let’s consider something that could happen in the future, with the possibility of another Abbasid variant:

I think Abbasid could have another variant. for “Mamluk Sultanate”:

  • So that the Mamluks are canon as a heavy cavalry unit once and for all.
  • No more camels, or have one as a support unit (with drums).
  • No House of Wisdom, but with Cairo Citadel.

Now this brings us even more problems, since we then have to balance units across three civs so that each one is unique.

Let’s at least start piecemeal, because the main problem for Ayyubid and Abbasid is the camels, and it’s been a problem “since the start of the Beta.”


1) AoE IV: Beta, Themed Civs, and “3-Unit Balance”

When the game started in 2021 with 8 civs, each civ had a theme: English: Archers, French: Knights, HRE: Melee Infantry, Delhi: Elephants. In Abbasid’s case, it was Camels.

There was also the unique unit limit: All civs were limited to 3 Early Unique Units, with the exception of China.

  • The English had 1.- Early Men-at-Arm, 2.- Bowman-Villagers, and 3.- Longbowmen. The French had 1.- Royal Knight, 2.- Arbalesters, and 3.- Cannons.
  • In the case of the Abbasids: Camel Archer, Camel Rider, and Iman, without any abilities, but with a different name than the Monk (Yes, that’s the only reason they considered it a unique unit).

This is the real reason why the Abbasids don’t have a horse archer. Due to “supposed balance,” they only gave each civ 1 horse archer. The Abbasids unique horse archer become a Camel archer for “Themed Civ”, even though historically they were a “support unit” and not the mainstay of the army.

And the Ayyubids carried the weight, being an “Abbadid” variant and one of the first four variants, which, for publicity, were “civs that were 80% indistinguishable from their parent civs so that players wouldn’t get confused when learning how to play them.” So, they give Ayyubid “More camels” instead of properly horse cavalry unique trops.

  • We know that didn’t turn out well, but the subsequent patches, which further differentiated the variants from their civ parents, and Knight of Cross and Ross with their new variant definition, gave us a clue as to how they can improve.

2) Ayyubid, current representation

I’m hesitant here, because I’m not really sure if the devs really wanted to make Ayyubids, since the original name was “Army of the Sultan.” If this is true, it would explain why they didn’t bother giving them specific Ayyubid units, and instead looked for variants for “camel” units.

Whether that was the case or not, in any case, I’m grateful that many of the units intended for Ayyubids were part of their army, with “Not acceptable (-), Acceptable (+), Partial (-/+)” aspects.

  • House of Wisdom.- Not acceptable (-). During the Ayyubid rule, Baghdad was under the control of the reborn Abbasid dynasty. The ayyubid were allies of abbasid, but didn´t control Baghdad.
    – Solution: As many suggest, they could rename the building “Citadel”. The only change would be the name, since technically it no longer functions as a library, but rather as a center of power. If possible, I would also request a slight change to the design, but the wings and current technologies are fine.

  • Dessert Raider.- Partial (-/+). Technically, they are allies from the Maghreb desert region; many of them were Raiders. I generally see them as the camel support that Saladin used against the Crusaders; but they were not the actual harassing troops of Turkish horse archers that we saw in the campaign, for example.

  • Camel Lancer.- Partial (-/+). Historical sources mention that Saladin didn’t have much “heavy cavalry”; his cavalry was lighter, or his camels. I suppose that for compensation and balance, they designated the Camel Lancer as heavy cavalry, although in theory the lance is not correct, because the Muslims used another type of lance for their cavalry charges, not the European one.

  • Ghulam - Acceptable (+). Yes, they were used; they were the mainstay of the Abbasids’ troop procurement, although many of them were also primarily heavy cavalry and not dismounted infantry. It was sometimes interchanged with the term “Mamluk” to refer to military ghulams, as there were also domestic ghulams.

  • Sultan Tower - Acceptable/Partial (-/++). It’s a great unit, but in theory, more than one civilization has created giant siege towers for large sieges. In the same campaign, we see that the Crusaders built one. In short, the solution for the future I see is to have more subtypes of “Siege Towers.” Historically, Saladin created two giant siege towers to overcome the walls of Jerusalem in 1187. He also used quite a few to try to reconquer Tyre, but they failed to recapture it.

  • Manjaniq.- Partial (-/++).- Technically, it was a Abbasid siege weapon, but I suppose they wanted to give the Ayyubid for variety instead of give it to both.

  • Beduin Sworman - Good (++). Bedouin support for the Ayyubid dynasty, represented by skilled swordsmen, albeit lightly armored.

  • Beduin Squirmisher - Good (++). Bedouin support for the Ayyubid dynasty, represented by javelin-wielding skirmishers. Islamic armies were always noted for having javelin-throwing units, and this unit fulfills that role well.

  • Dervish - Very Good (+++). Sufi cults, especially those following the teachings of the Dervish hermits, only appeared around the time of Saladin. Furthermore, it was also mentioned that Islamic armies had medical units, some using camel-drawn stretchers; this unit combines both aspects well.


3) How could the civ be improved?

  • Rename the Howse of Knowledge to Citadel.

  • Give Abbasid the Manjaniq. If not, at least "Naphta grenadiers"

  • Turkish Horse Archer.- Maybe unlocked by a wing of the Citadel, replacing the dessert raiders as free units by the Military wing, or as mercenaries for gold with the Trade wing.

  • Mounted Ghulam - Perhaps with a similar effect to Ghulam: Fast Attacks but less damage. Didn´t know if add only for Abbasid or also for Ayyubid.

Let’s reserve the name “Mamluk” for the heavy cavalry of the Mamluk Sultanate as a new civ variant.

Another ideas?

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Do agree with removing House of wisdom from AYB, that’s ABS’s building.

But I’m a bit curious, how do you design this new archer to make it different from others, just attack faster? Maybe it’s OK but still sounds not interesting enough.

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I think its difficult with the whole Mamluk thing now. I originally wanted to propose a whole Mamluk Sultunate civilization prior to the variants being created, which would be a representation for Egypt overall with the Ayyubids and Mamluks being the basis for the civ. Although I think making another variant for Abbasid for the Mamluk could be the best course of action now.

Honestly I was just spitballing. I’ve read a bit on the Crusades however I wouldn’t say im anything close to an expert. I read alot of segements where the Islamic armies used heavy archer fire, more so than the Crusaders. I remember a particular mention of Sudanese archers being utilized, maybe in Thomas Asbridges book, and thought that would be a good unit, certainly more based in history than a camel lancer which seems to have been completely made up.

Yes, you’re right… I hadn’t noticed that the Manjaniq doesn’t appear in the general table of unique units in the AoE wiki, but yes, they should give the Manjaniq as the last fifth UU to the Abbasids as well and nothing else (or well, it depends on what civs they add in the future)…

It’s not necessary, just rename it to Cairo Citadel or Al-Azhar University and that’s it…

It could also be an Ayyubid variant, since both had their capital in Cairo…

Yes, AoE 2 have the Archers of Eyes and AoE 3 has the Sudanese dervish which is an archer…