Vietnamese are a good Civilization playwise with a solid game plan and decent units. I insist on giving them a slight tech tree buff to help, like Siege Ram or Masonry.
why do vietnamese need buffs? they are a solid civ, stop looking at ladder winrates as the end all be all.
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I have asked for a Cuman buff 2 or 3 times now. People take it lightly simply because they were the most OP civ in the history of AoE2.
The fact is Cumans have no strong bonuses except free Husbanry. The extra wall HP is good but that HP gives you extra time, not extra defence.
The extra TC and SW in Feudal Age are a big investment which maynot pay off anytime soon. I know SotL’s analysis but the drawback of the TC is its superlong build time.
However another good bonus is Capped Ram in Castle Age, which is decent.
Looking at the tech tree, they lack anti-infantry options and looking at the stats, they lose much against archer civs.
The key holes in tech tree are Arbalesters, Bracer and Siege Engineers.
Possible buff: Siege upgrades cost -50% food (transferred from Bulgarians).
Reason: Bulgarians were weak in early game and great in late. To help in early game they were given a blacksmith and siege bonus. I felt the siege bonus is unnecessary since Bulgarians are already strong in Imperial Age (all siege upgrades are in Imperial Age). Bulgarians also have great infantry and Cavalry, both of which can be anti-buiding.
For Cumans, this bonus can do wonders. For Cumans, this bonus affects the gold cost too. Cumans having SO is mostly useless atm but it can be super strong countering both archers and infantry. Cumans lacking Siege Engineers is the necessary check and balance for Onagers. Cumans have only strong Cavalry so this can open up the 2nd door. Their Cavalry Archers are below average because of lacking Bracer.
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i dont think this helps them.
they are weak when the opposing civ can fc and punish their boom
besides free husbandry their only eco advantage is the boom, and the walls, but arabia was specifically modified to punish walling (reflected in their winrate by patch)
and if someone can fast castle and get mangos or rams they can punish that boom faster than it pays off
so imo they could either give them a better feudal military buff(eg rams are faster), or a minor eco tweak (eg TC builds faster or walls build faster)
but i really dont think buffing their imperial game will make much of a difference…
but either way wherever they get buffed in the early game i reckon their boom is going to be more oppressive in the lower elos where people arent playing aggressively enough to already counter their boom
The most obvious part is “the extra TC makes the civ hardest to balance”.
The extra TC is basically lose or win. If you build it, and it is a prolonged feudal age, you win great. If you build it and opponent goes fc, you lose hard. If you don’t build it, you are giving up your only direct economy bonus.
In my opinion, they have one of the most generic castle age amongst civs. Except the free Husbanry, Capped Rams and presence of steppe lancers, which are hard to see these days, they have absolutely 0 bonuses for their units.
You can’t go archery range because of lacking Bracer. You can’t go barracks because it is out of meta and you lack supplies. You have good stable tree but you don’t have bonuses. Their Knights are pretty generic. Cavaliers are present for 31 other civs and Cavaliers are nothing special. The real speciality is the Paladin which isn’t possible in 1 vs 1.
Capped Rams are great but you don’t make them like Crossbowmen or Knights.
The only strength of the civ is Feudal TC (situational) and Paladins. Paladins are Paladins even if they do not have any bonuses.
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ahh yes, let’s forget the castle age unique tech which lets them mass up their units lightning fast.
but hey let’s ignore all 4 of those bonuses they have.
you absolutely can, especially when your cav archers can hit and run better then other cav archers, and you can mass them up faster too.
mobility is king but lets ignore that they have the most mobile and fastest massing army in the game.
It is a uniue tech, not a bonus. So that makes sense. No complaints about the Castle age bonus. It is one of the best. But the castle and massed LCav come in quite late. Maybe even Imperial age.
point you is you are literally saying “lets ignore this and this and this, but see they haVe no bonuses”.
this would be like saying “if we ignore that Britons get extra range on their archers and can make them faster, they get no castle age military bonuses”
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The first part of the bonus is not an archery range bonus. It is basically free Husbandry - a stable bonus. You may argue this saves 175 wood not needing to build a stable first. I will try this strategy in my next game.
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The bonus requires a castle. If you have a castle, why not make Kipchaks?
point is, you are blatantly ignoring what makes cumans strong. just because their cav archers aren’t going to be as good in the late game as other civs doesn’t mean much because Cumans strength is in their mobility and ability to mass up faster.
or you could make both. Kipchaks are dirt cheap as is. and frankly with one castle its going to take you a while to mass up kipchaks, with their 20 second training time. meanwhile i can research SH and crank out Cav Archers in the far cheaper archery range in roughly 22 seconds each.
Wood = Gold <= Food in Castle Age. So overall a 5 resource gap.
Let me recall again, the good bonuses of Cumans:
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Extra HP on walls (decent, but walls are being nerfed every patch)
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+5% speed → Free Husbandry → +5% speed
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Capped Rams in Castle Age
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Steppe Husbandry (paid, requires a Castle): +100% production speed on light Cavalry and Cavalry Archer units
Steppe Husbandry and Paladins are the only power spikes the civ gets.
that’s a lot of power spike though. especially when you mix in capped rams in castle age.
Except Capped Rams, the other ones are quite expensive since I am also counting the cost of the Castle in Castle Age (I am ignoring the cost of castle in Imperial Age).
i think they actually have a pretty decent castle age of all things… camels and scorps have a life span, but at least they have everything, there are many civs that lack camels or xbows, or even TR, cumans have them all
yeah maybe their UT is situational and needs a castle
but if you can survive to castle age with the 2nd tc then you should be ahead on eco anyway… thats why im saying they need help getting there, once they get to castle age they are in a better position than a number of civs…
Easy: The data is garbage and made up. Franks having the same winrate as Aoestats.io with different patches seems fishy
Patch 44725 and the Lords of the West expansion have been released! We are currently collecting data from the new patch. Check back in a few days for updated stats…
Franks are already nerfed, and the nerf is enough.
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I miss one thing on this post. Is there a weight considering maps and associating the play rate?
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no its collective afaik, which inherently favours arabia but isnt a pure example
True. But being the worse overall is a bad thing.
Some other civs maybe have a higher winrste because the win in closed maps and cumans dont