I’d say Paladin isn’t used in 1v1 bc the upgrade itself is too expensive, regardless of the cost of the Halb upgrade. Plus 600g is still quite pricey in my eyes (even the Cavalier upgrade is cheaper).
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in Blackforest Tournament, everyone spammed Halberdier even though each side has 200 archers, tens of siege units which are main counter of Halberdier. This shows that how strong is Halberdier. Hussar is better against archer and siege, however, we saw Halberdier more than Hussar.
Because they are trash units and train cheap and fast.
If anything is at an abundance in black forest its wood and food. Halbs might as well cost nothing.
Halbs werent used ti counter the archers. They were used as a meat shield and to counter elephants/cavalry. Who cares if they die when they cost 35 food and 25 wood on a map that is literally wood gallore
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Halberdier is melted in seconds by Onagers, Scorpions and Archers. Its cheap doesn’t explain why this unit is too common considering 40-50 Halberdiers killed by Onagers and Archers instantly. Its cheap cost isn’t only reason that Halberdier is most common unit in 4v4 Blackforest Torunament.
Halberdier’s huge +32 attack vs cavalry is the reason which enables Halberdier to melt cavalry very fast. Halberdier destroy cavalry very quickly even if archers shooting from behind can’t kill Halberdiers before Halberdier inflict heavy damage to cavalries. Skirmisher can’t do what Halberdier can do. Skirmisher’s bonus is too low, thus, Skirmishers are killed by other units before Skirmishers kill Archers.
people keep saying this, but the amount you see Paladin in 1v1 is actually big. But even FU Cavalier is good enough vs Aztecs tbh.
This not to mention civs like Burgundians with discount on Paladin or Sicilians with basically Paladin grade Cavaliers.
Maybe at low levels, not at higher levels.
Considering hpw strong aztecs are from start until mid imp, it makes sense for them to be weaker beyond that.
If as you said rhey are being melted by siege in seconds, how are they really doing anything to the cavalry.
Skirmisher wins 1v1, halb does not. It doesnt need big bonuses like halbs do. It wins by defense over offense. Halbs win by offense ocer defense
Fact is though that halbs are a chea0 expendible meatshield on a map like blackforest wheee you can use them to clog up choke points.
when are Burgundians supposed to be weak then? What about Poles or Mayans. It seem these civs are strong at literally any stage of the game: strong in Castle age, strong in Feudal, strong in Imp.
Early fuedal when they have to imvest a ton into getting all castle age eco upgrades? Early castle when they dont have cavalier and are stuck with bloodlinesless knights?
And frankly id nerf Burgundians given the chance and remove revolution.
The mayans everyone and their brother wants nerfed?
As for poles many want them toned down a bit as well, especially on arena style maps.
Bad examples to use honestly.
So just because paladin is expensive, certain civs should have 0 counters for it? Even SO has counters in like 39 out of 42 civs via different unit combinations.
And better eco? Than who, Franks? Maybe Aztecs at release, but now, Aztec eco is in all honesty above average, and that’s about it. Nowhere as good as it once was.
Same argument.
Monks. Yes that’s not as ideal as halbs but it’s not like it’s a civ loss or something. It sounds like people who make posts about Teutons and CA as if they couldn’t make any siege or trash unit, or you know, play the game before the opponent gets a perfect post imp composition.
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Monks is an extremely short term strat. Rly gold intensive and typically you trade 1 for 1. Monks get you 1 free Knight and kill 1 enemy Knight, sure, but they also tend to die after unlike Arbalest/Cavalier so gold retention is poor.
Micro aspect aside, “going full Monks” isn’t a thing in Imp, you can do maybe 50-60 Monks and then you are out of gold.
the only one you REALLY have to get is Bow saw which is 75f 100w, wood is typically a resource that isn’t hugely important in Feudal, investing 100w early means you delay your Archery Range by like maybe 1 min, in some games it could matter but you aren’t FORCED to get Bow Saw first thing in Feudal. Anyway, payback time is rly short and by the end of Feudal you already saved like 500 resources as Burgundians, mostly wood.
Don’t see them as being weak in Feudal at all sorry. Their eco upgrades are cheaper, it’s basically 1/2 Franks 1/2 Burmese bonus which together amounts to 1 full bonus.
Monks, pikes with +4 attack and faster production.
If your solution to countering paladins in imp is “Monks”, you should probably play the game a bit more before giving balance opinions.
Read above.
Um payback time on bowsaw in early fuedal with 12 lumberjacks is around 4 to 5 minutes. Thats a long time to be behind in wood. Not sure how you think wood doesnt matter in feudal when i frequently watch even pros struggling to get farm eco running.
If you think paladin is a 1v1 unit you should watch some more pro games. Occasionally franks can pull it off, Burgundians can ofc, but they lack bloodlines.
I bet you though that garland war pikes are more then cost effective vs paladib
Burgundians get discount on the tech and anyway since other civs “must” get this tech too, it’s best to think of it in terms of how many additional resources you get while you have it and other civs don’t. Let’s say you prioritize defense, so drop Archery range first, then Bow Saw, you click it at around min 12, until min 21 it’s like 9 ingame minutes or roughly 500w that Burgundians generate “for free” in Feudal.
In Castle Age you have above average terms because of this extra wood, you can drop Monastery, University, Siege shop and 1, maybe even 2 TCs right away.
Knight → Cavalier “window where Burgundians are weak” is like 1 ingame minute, might as well argue that archer civs are weak until they get Bodkin…
With regular civs sure but aztecs monks are pretty viable in these scenarios. You have tons of hp so you convert enough paladin to make the trade very good. You just put pikemen in front and you’re completely fine as aztecs here. If you’re up vs teutons or sicilian cav (with castle age UT) it can very dicey but against regular civs you are fine here. Giving aztec halb with 4 extra dmg and faster production speed is op for sure.
For real? You suggest giving aztecs halb and say something like that? 11
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Let me put ir this way.
In esrly feudal dba has a payback time of 3.5 minutes and costs 100 food and 50 wood.
Bowsaw costs 25 less food and double the wood.
Just because other civs hace to get it means not much, by thw time they get it they have more farms and more lumberjacks to afford and pay it off faster with
Yeah, but that’s over thw course of feudal. In early feudal thwy are still behind are they not?
And if they aren’t getting farm upgrades their farms are going to be inferior to their opponents.
Was my claim thwy are behind all of feudal, or in estly feudal.
Yet somehow you twist my argument to make it they are weak sll of feudal
Its 100 seconds. Nice try. And that means idling one of your stables and not having that production.
Giving Aztecs halberdier would be a bad thing for multiple reasons.
- They don’t need it because they have garland wars
- Garland Wars halbs would make Burmese even more lame, right now they at least have the best halb in the game (non cav targets)
- Aztec win condition is before late imperial age, meaning BEFORE paladin is even a question. If you fail to close the game in castle age/ early imp with amazing bonuses and units that are geared towards that time window you should lose.
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Burgundians are weak unitl three stable cavalier. Your win condition is before that if you con’t have great counter units or better eco than them