Xbox: Balance Input

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
1

Currently the Xbox ranked ladder is dominated by Mouse and Keyboard players. M&K affords higher APM, and M&K players benefit from the same automations that controller players were granted in an effort to bridge the very same APM gap between input methods.

This could be balanced in a number of ways:

  • input-based matchmaking: controller vs controller, M&K vs M&K
  • input toggle for matchmaking: ability to filter matchmaking to only controller players, or all.
  • remove M&K altogether: many players on this forum complain about M&K bugs (no binds, middle mouse issues, etc…). Y’all acquired a whole studio just to design the (amazing) controller UI—stick to your guns! M&K players can always play on PC, or spend the 30m - 1h it takes to learn to play on controller.

Until the playing field is leveled there can be no true competitive ranked ladder for controller players, the primary player-base on Xbox.

3

Out of the top 20 players, there are 3 decent m&kb player. Sledgehammer, Gooey, and KJ. The rest are controller. The top 5 players are all controller.

4

I can confirm this. I’m 1 on ladder rn and Mnk honestly is on par with controller. They don’t get auto vills and auto eco so Xbox feels on par.

6

Was not aware—where can you see this? Leaderboard in game / online doesn’t show input afaik. I would be surprised if this were the case. There’s no comparison with APM and micro precision b/w controller and M&K.

7

I’ve experienced your micro on MnK Viperr, do you think you could get to that level on controller? If you cloned yourself and your clone played controller only, do you think they’d beat you even 10% of the time?

Auto vills is nice but not more than a convenience for experienced players. Auto eco is actually a detriment, AI will send vills into enemy territory, choose the further drop-off, etc…

8

PC is a whole different breed because the UI isn’t ugly and the controls ain’t annoying. I know controller doesn’t stand a chance in high level against PC but Mnk on Xbox is fairly manageable because the UI isn’t favourable. You can usually just click on the profile of the player in game and see their last input or current input.

9

Where are you getting your statistics to claim m&kb dominates the ladder? I play vs all of the top players and they are all on controller except me.

Auto vill and auto eco allow players to focus solely on their micro. This is why strats like the french rush can work on controller as a mnk player needs good micro to pull this off.

Don’t forget you and any other controller player are more than welcome to plug in a mnk if you feel that it is superior. I would bet that you will not find any greater success and in fact you may be worse at the game without auto vill and auto eco. I always find it funny when I run MAA at someones woodline and kill 20 vills and they still claim “MnK”.

This game is MACRO dominant. Micro comes in at the higher tiers of play on PC, you can hit conq 3 on xbox ladder with zero micro skill.

10

I’ll admit my “statistics” are anecdotal, leaderboards on aoe4world seem to be bugged, displaying everyone as using controller, yourself included. In-game leaderboard I can’t currently access, (buddies and I play customs but switching to QM, I’m under 20 QM games this season so no leaderboard afaik).

I wish I had better data to support my claims, but for folks who have tried both input options, it’s pretty obvious which is advantageous.

Auto eco is not the benefit it would seem to be, often leading villagers into enemy territory, or to sub-optimal drop-offs. Auto vills is nice but with hotkeys on a keyboard this is easy enough to manage (10+ yrs of AOM on M&K), quickly becomes muscle memory. IMO losing these features is not a sufficient trade-off for the insane micro benefits afforded to M&K players. M&K IS superior to controller–simply more buttons, fewer clicks per action, faster more precise movement, faster APM. Controller is more accessible, allows for more casual play, couch gaming, and invites an entire new player base to Age, but from what I’ve seen / heard / read on reddit, many controller players are turned away by the input discrepancy.

The devs have access to the real stats, I just wanted to call out the frustration controller players face w.r.t. ranked fairness.

11

I know the input type of all the top 25 players. I play them regularly.

Mnk SHOULD be superior, but fine tuning auto eco like viper does and then auto vill are HUGE bonuses that make controller players way better than they should be. It makes the game even.

Again the game is HEAVILY MACRO DEPENDENT. Input plays a small factor when you get ghulams rushed. Promise you my MnK does not save me from a good fast castle when I tried to eco boom.

mnk is the biggest cope to many bad players. I can watch any replay of yours you would like and I can show you where you lost the game to the fundamental rock paper scissors (FC, 2TC, aggression) not because enemy had MnK.

12

I think that’s more of a case that top MnK players play on the PC not on console. I remember one of the streamers (Beasty maybe) streaming a top level console tourney shortly after release, and the level of gameplay was somewhere around diamond level of PC gameplay even when it came to fundamentals like build orders and unit compositions.

A lot of people that would take MnK to console are often bad actors that want to smurf on people.

1 Like
13

I’d argue micro is just as important.

14

That’s how I feel as well. Wish M&K would stick to PC, and console would have a level playing field. This very same issue has destroyed ranked communities on many other console games, would hate to see that happen here.

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99% of the players you lose to on the ranked ladder are controller. You will need to figure out why you are losing instead of telling yourself they are using MnK.

Again, I will watch your replays and help you get better. It’s not the input device and it’s not micro.

16

I don’t play ranked and am not having issues winning games :slight_smile:. I would play ranked if I knew that the other player was using the same input. Only then could players be sure that the outcome of the game is determined by skill / decision making alone.

The input discrepancy is not fair in any case. One or the other will be advantageous no matter what efforts are made to balance them—they are simply different input mechanisms. One is faster, has finer precision, and more buttons. If I am managing eco and need to get back to the front line, it takes considerable time to zoom over (trade off of camera move speed vs accuracy). M&K can click the mini-map and teleport there. The automations controller players have access to are nice but nowhere close to compensating for the physical disadvantages. Auto eco is a disadvantage. Auto-vill is two keystrokes, and quickly becomes muscle memory. There’s really no comparison.

Why can’t we have all M&K on PC and all controller on console, or filters on either platform? Only then will there be no debate, no cope, no discrepancy.

There are great players with both input currently on console, but over time the gap will widen, as it does with any other mixed input competitive console game.

20

Small correction to my original post, I’m told the automations aren’t available to M&K players. However…

  • Auto-vill production is replaced on keyboard with two keystrokes, and quickly becomes muscle memory.
  • Auto-eco is a detriment in most cases-- insane villager pathing, long-distance gathering, villagers running to their doom, etc… I’ve had much more success in games where I’m not using it.
21

You have the top players telling you the effect of input on outcome is negligible and you keep arguing it from the perspective of a guy that doesn’t even play ranked?

This is becoming painful. You are complaining about something that isn’t a problem. The game is very fair and balanced between mnk and controller. You are wrong and I am running out of ways to tell you that you lack the skill and experience to understand how wrong you are.

Again 90% of the top players are CONTROLLER. There is no balance issue and there is no MnK dominance.

The playerbase is small enough, you can’t separate the lobbies.

22

There’s no cause for hostility, this is an online discussion about a video game. You can choose not to respond at any time.

You have the top players telling you the effect of input on outcome is negligible and you keep arguing it from the perspective of a guy that doesn’t even play ranked?

Our experiences are equally anecdotal. The enjoyment of bronze ↔ plat players matters as much if not more than the small swath of “top players”, especially when introducing the game to a new player base. The input issue affects quick match just as much as ranked. I’ve called out why I don’t play ranked. I wish I had more time to invest in the game but that is not my reality. One doesn’t need to play ranked to make objective comparisons between controller and M&K. The gameplay mechanics are the same between the various modes, only the stakes are different.

You are complaining about something that isn’t a problem. The game is very fair and balanced between mnk and controller.

This isn’t a problem for you, as a M&K player. It’s a problem for the majority of the player base who uses controller.

You are wrong and I am running out of ways to tell you that you lack the skill and experience to understand how wrong you are.

“You are wrong” isn’t an argument. You still haven’t addressed any of my specific points. You can’t.

Again 90% of the top players are CONTROLLER. There is no balance issue and there is no MnK dominance.

I’d wager >90% of players on Xbox are using controller. Again, top players aren’t the only ones whose experience matters.

The player base is small enough, you can’t separate the lobbies.

This could be a fair point—I don’t have accurate player counts handy. I’d invite the minority of players who use M&K to power up the included controller and play the game that way, as it was intended (for console that is). If mouse and keyboard is a deal breaker, why not join the pros and other top players on PC?

If the discussion pains you please disengage, I don’t mean to offend or stir up resentment within the community. We all clearly care about the game and want it to remain a success. Balance is a big part of that.

24

Try this. Plug in a mouse and keyboard and go play 10 games. Then come back here and tell me your W/L. I would be willing to bet you will lose 9/10 of them.

You refuse to understand the input device does not make the player skilled. Skill comes from game knowledge and practice. You think that plugging in a MnK makes someone good at the game. You should try it out for yourself and see how wrong you are.

25

This is still anecdotal. No value in it. You could do the same thing, easier, with the controller you have.
Are you trying to argue M&K is worse? Are you playing with it out of charity?

I’ve played age games for decades on M&K. You likely haven’t played controller.

I’m not arguing input == skill. I’m arguing that the specific benefits that M&K afford lead to advantages in gameplay. You still haven’t addressed those points, but continue to harp on “skill” and your personal experience. “Because I say so” isn’t a convincing argument.

26

We have already told you, the advantages of MnK are balanced by auto eco, auto vill, and seeing score. You refuse to accept it.