True, but Archers pretty much counter monks in this case? (assume good enough micro)
In any case, tbh I feel like they are just Chu ku nus with better performance against armors
You can throw rams to serve as shield to buy time.
As a reminder that Chinese lost Redemption once got Block Printing because how insane the Chu Ko Nu deathball can be, I just don’t see reason why Armenians keep redemption…
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Nah I think you can just micro the archers to kill the monks.
No BBC makes it really tough imo.
Well chinese got FU calvary in return
Not Hussar or Paladin though.
It is still usable/preferable in some extent because of the eco bonus.
Possibly, but we’ll have to see. In team games, the armenian’s ally can bring their own siege and bbc.
No, chu ko nu fire 2 and 4(elite) extra arrows dealing 3 damage each. Against high pierce armour targets, that’s maximum 5 damage. These archers do minimum 8.
They are extremely tough to balance. Also, not a good idea because, as I said, they are a middle finger to certain units. Catas are ridiculously expensive, at least.
Yea that’s why “with better performance against armors”
Also I think “FULL TECH” chu ko nu deal 14 damage on main arrow.
Edit: why FU is sensored?
Just checked the Armenian tech tree. The new UU have 4 base attack and 4 base range. Almost complete blacksmith (no final barding armor) and no thumb ring or BBC or hussar. It has range capped at 7 and the UU would be countered by siege and arbalest. The UU will be useful against paladin and skirm. It seems fair but I cant determine yet coz training time also matter for a unit produced in castle. Plus rof for a range unit; like whether shoot like ordinary archer or like HC or skirm.
Anyway it is still too early to determine as several key info is not known.
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Which is a good thing, that creates variety. You just need a different way to counter.
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Okay, let’s add skirms that can fly. Couple of units with superpowers, Maybe ar-15s and apache helicopters? Lots of variety, right?
Variety is only good when it adds to the depth of the game, and it’s enjoyment. This unit does neither.
My point is that you are under selling it. Broken archers counter huskarls with micro. Chu ko nus don’t. Chu ko nus die hard to both cavalry and anti-archer units.
In fact I think chu ko nus counters pretty much everything (cavs/anti-archer) too…
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We can argue over that. However, you are also forgetting civs without great arbs and siege. That’s the whole problem with these mechanics. You need to think about all civs which cannot possibly counter these mechanics. For example, spanish and bulgarians. In those cases, you just get a monk war, which is not what I want to see in late game.
Chu ko nus have long reload/unit select time which makes them pretty bad with micro. Without a strong front line, they can’t do much. These units, at least from the preview videos, don’t have such a huge limitation.
Also, they absolutely hard die to units like huskarls and ghulams. That’s just factually true.
Yea I think we are diverging too far, but my point is they are not as imbalancable as you may have thought (and we have examples before)
Also I think we are talking too much about late game scenarios - the civ in general looks rather meh in Castle age tbh.
I know that they are imbalanced. As I said, mark my words, they will get nerfed within 4 months of release. I don’t know how, but it’ll happen.
To put the difference into perspective, just watch the mike empires videos. They are even done without micro, so the results should be better in an actual game.
I agree. The armor-ignoring mechanic should be changed. The devs struggle to find unique techs and bonuses with 45 civs, so maybe we could keep this mechanic for Leiciai, Dravidians and broken archers, but change it so it only ignores half of armor and then rebalance units based on that? Probably done as a float (unlike, say, Bohemian bonus which gets rounded to integer).
It could an interesting mechanic if it doesn’t break things: the broken archers could have low base attack, which means they do low damage to objects whose armor they DON’T ignore (palisade walls, mangonels, and I guess ships), but more damage to normal units. Different from just giving a bonus against some or all unit types (like how Plumed Archers have +1 (+2 elite) vs infantry) because it interacts with upgrades.
Then we’d also have, for example, Dravidian halberdiers only reducing Elite Teutonic Knight armor from 13 to 6.5, so they would only do 3.5 damage instead of 10. Still a 250% increase in damage, but not enough to making spamming halberdiers cost-efficient against the slowest and most heavily-armored infantry in the game, no matter how little gold there is left on the map.
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It seems that they attack slower than longbowmen?
Yes, and they absolutely suck in low numbers. They’re actually kinda balanced by DLC standards.
Hopefully it would not be a worse version of HC then.
We have Gbeto, Throwing Axemen, Mameluke, Slingers and Chakrams which are ranged units who ignore pierce armor, because they do different damage types. What makes Composite Bowmen worse? I’m not the biggest fan of this kind of unit, but Composite Bowmen aren’t the first.
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You’ve got to wait for the release first. This feels like the Wootz steel hype during DOI release. There are some hidden stats which aren’t known yet. Like ROF, frame delay, attack delay, training time. We don’t know those values yet. They’ve also been listed as “weak vs archers”. This could mean some negative archer class armor.
The ignore effect doesn’t work on siege units. This means scorps + monks, some siege uu civ like Portugese, Bohemians could work quite well against this civ and uu. Mangonels will just be very good against them because of the lower range.
This is the biggest flawed assumption. Why jump straight to late game. What happened to the other ages. They’re a slow civ, bonuses get better only from castle age. Dark age is generic, you spend a bit more food and a bit less wood compared to generic civs. Feudal age isn’t the greatest either. Just 5% extra wood income compared to other civs.
You’re most likely going to be slower to castle age and might struggle against superfast builds from flank civs. The civ lacks thumb ring to play as a xbow flank in later stages of castle age. And for obvious reasons you cant play infantry in open map TG either. The transition from no thumb ring archer line to castles + composite bows is not an obvious transition. This means its a nomad TG niche. And I’ll get to the dps part next.
You already have these types of high dps ranged units. Chukonus get 14 attack on primary projectile and shoot a bunch of extra arrows. Still not even close to being considered as OP or the best uu in the game.
First of all incorrect. Elite genoese get +7, non-elites get +5. Second you have your answer to why this unit isn’t going to be OP. Its a CASTLE unit much similar to genoese. We don’t see Italians stomping all civs in the ladder everyday. They’re not even a top-5 flank civ. Britons. Ethiopians, Mayans, Portugese, Vietnamese and a bunch of other civs ahead of Italians. And this is despite Italians getting cheaper age up and archer lines getting full upgrades with an extra upgrade for armor.
They perfectly can and infact if their rof is low like 3.0 per hit, those might be some of the best civs against this unit. The problem could be from the healing of the warrior priest but not this unit by itself. Mayans go for plumed archers, their cheap arbalesters or the double projectile skirms. Burmese can make use of their light cav to stack the units tight and Arambai can produce the mass destruction effect afterwards.
Just reducing rof is sufficient. If unit has lower rof, it cant handle large volumes of units likely to be seen at that stage of the game. Another way to handle without significant rof nerf is to lower the speed down even further. I believe they continue to have the common foot archer speed of 0.96 but if thats reduced to 0.88 or something, it could be harder to use and micro against siege units.
You should also remember that this civ doesn’t get canons. So opponent canons could also be very effective against them.
You know how infantry are supposed to be fragile to archers but eagles, ghulam and huskarl defy that rule. This unit is going to be the archer equivalent of it imo. Its going to be effective against tanky melee units but ineffective against light but large volume of units.
I’m sure there will be nerf cries much similar to whatever happened with Gurjara units. Initially people who have no clue about the DLC or new units will just click on it, see its an archer and treat it the same way. Lose to it and create a thread here. Eventually it will become obvious that the unit has to be treated differently.
The only way I see the unit being broken is if they have sub 2.0 rof, insanely good frame delay/attack delay, move and produce quite fast. Like 15 seconds training time and 1.05 speed. If those stats are something like 3.0, 25 (20), 1.05 or 2.0, 30(25), 0.85, the unit will be balanced.
It might still feel OP due to the healing from their other uu but it definitely can be balanced even with this concept.
If you resign you’re just wasting what could potentially be free elo. Civ is not that great. Once again a civ with too many infantry bonuses. Very similar to romans both in terms of eco and options, these uu instead of roman scorps. Very difficult to use. Armenian player will be very tempted to go for castle age champions and kill their own eco in the process. Just don’t try to rush the civ nor engage the unique units right away. Use mangonels or scorpions for defense and you’ll be fine. The ignore armor doesn’t work on those.
If at all you’re losing to that civ could be more because of warrior priests than composite bowmen