Hi every one,
One thing that has bothered me the most is how the archaic age for norse is.
Now this video is about Kronos rush. What I want you to pay attention to is how complicated A norse player has to react against a Kronos rush. First off they need to scout which is very difficult with norse.
And whole lot of other stuff. I wanted to know every ones’ idea about whether norse archaic age is ok as it is.
I remember the time zeus could bolt your starting ulfsatk.
Or when kronos could deconstruct your temple and you couldn’t age up
Yes, kronos has a strong age2 rush, but i do not believe norse has a particularly harder time to defend it compared to others. The deconstruct GP is strong anf i don’t really see a way around it being a major factor.
It can’t do it now?
really? none of the civs except norse changed their build order much in the video. And boit told greeks are immune to that rush. While norse especially loki can’t even get a right timed age up.
They aren’t. You’ll still pick up a few villagers or deny some eco until the greek can spawn the first hero, which costs 50 wood and that’s gonna set you back a little bit no matter what happens eventually.
You’re also gonna deconstruct a temple which is going to set them back on favor generation.
Having to adapt to a rush and change your build order isn’t something unheard of. Usually that’s how things go in an RTS.
This has more to do with dev’s overzealous attempts to nerf Loki and Odin into submission to appease the low skill players. Loki in particular is vulnerable to all sorts of early game cheeses…
I’d say kronos age3 timings are far stronger than his age2 timing.
This is currently one of thr topics in the disc server in regards to krush. Is always harder to defend than to attack tbh. Also besides being map dependant. It also shows that it is defendable and people really dont adapt good to it most of the time, like changing their build order.
Its also linked to kronos needing to Rush un certain match ups to get a fighting chance.
Nope. Total crap. With the slashed economy, it’s impossible to reach age 2 before 4:40. For comparison, in Egypt, I reach age 3 at 7:30.
I once defended a three-player rush in a 3v3 game as Set. My team won.
For Loki, I couldn’t do that.
That is also my feeling. I don’t get rushed very often but Yesterday I got hit by double carnivora on my berserk while building a temple. We did manage to hold a bit but that move crippled for entirety of 40 minute game.
My problem isn’t with Kronos rush per se. But I used it as an extreme example to prove my point. Althoough I do have problem with early game rushes in general I would perfer for this to be a discussion in an other topic.
I only play loki so I would like to know opinions from other norse god players. I tried advancing with loki without getting economic upgrades. But it seemed to make very little difference. I tried advancing super quick but I ended up with so much little infrastructure that made no sense. And it isn’t that fast either.
Norse has several weakneses in archaic:
-They struggle with picking up relics.
-They struggle with scouting (except Odin).
-They are very vulnerable to rushes if they follow their standard build order.
-Their build order in my opinion is inherently more complicated for an average player.
When Retold first came out my newbie friends only played atlanteans. I was shocked how they can age up faster than me without any build orders while also managing to pick up relics WAY faster than me.
Also norse build orders I think are inherently more complicated than other pantheons.
By considering the fact that the kronos player also does sacrifice some eco in order to make the rush I think what greeks are losing is nothing compared to what norse faces.
How much should I change my build order? The build order proposed by boit for Norse gets so complicated and requires perfect micro at the cost of: 1- Not scouting 2- Not having enough infrastructre.
It is funny since I remember magic uploading a build order which was perfect for rushing.
For sure that is. As I said I don’t mind kronos rush. I just used as an extreme example to show the flaw with Norse archaic age.
IDK to be honest. I never think about balance. I’m not that good of a player. If they are doing something they probably have a good reason to. I usually look at stuff in a “design perspective”.
With the current topic of the Krush, theres been guides on how to defend it and thus theres build orders for faster advance time. Loki struggles the most since thor can age up faster, odin has ravens and the hunt bonus and freyr can defend with gullen even thou his age up is later.
That being said, the god can defend for most levels to rushes.
Lets go by each of them
Yes, they are the civ with the slowest relic catching potential
True, and spy, but they are the civ with the best map pressence later on in the game and their scouting is more than enough most times to see whats going on and take desicions.
This is true for most gods thou. Eggy and japan can be punished for with kronos rush as well (i would call out more but there isnt currently many rushes in the game that work and high level). You can be punished by a greedy buid if you dont know how to defend. I guess coming from a tgs only pov is different since you can be 2 vs 1, but again, most civs would struggle vs that. On 1 vs 1 you can see what your opponent is doing and react to it, thou that requires game knowledge and knowing what to look for, which would be hard for players that only play 1 god or 1 civ an have no knowldge of how the others god play route goes depending on what the intend to do.
This is true, but its always gonna be the case as long as you have 2 types of gatherers. Now, to me, theres always gonna be a harder and easier civ at everything, that shouldnt matter. The issue should be is the difficulty unreasonable? which i dont think it currently is.
Yea, civs have different strenghts. Then you prob showed him a heroic timing and he was looking at you having flaming weapons when all he had was a traitor god power. Attys whole deal is they have easy macro and less eficient villagers in the gathering department.
Kronos doesnt sacrifice much. Its a 3:00 advance with simply 1 villager less (no iddle time or anything simply aging faster means less villagers on age up) or 3:30 with a manor and a villager (oranos can do the same, just not as worth it for him unless a very cheeky play)
What if loki started with a hersir instead of ulfsark?
I’ve played a few games as Kronos now, and after Loki, I can’t keep up with spending resources. I literally can’t. To establish an Atlantean economy, you need an APM much higher than mine.
It has lower speed and sight range, so the spy can’t be used before T2, and there are no rushes.
You can’t have everything in life. You must make due with what life gives you.
Theres something else going on thats not apm. Atty macro is really friendly
I don’t like the fact the norse have to change their build order so much just because of one god. Also we have to be extra careful now because of the carnivora strat that has been poping up lately.
There are degrees to being slow. If there is a relic right in my base. I won’t be able to pick it up. The Atlantean can easily pick the relic right in front of me up.
If my oponnent is going to rush I need to know. What good is map control if my berserk will be eaten with a carnivora. When new players in AoE games complain about rushing every one says “Oh you should just scout their base”. Well in AoM if you are Loki/thor you can’t do it. Even if you are odin to be honest the ravens come quite late.
How is that true? I watched all of the build orders. the others just move their villagers slightly. Norse has to herd every game. Make a perfect force drop. Sactifice a good bit of thier infra structure.
This would have been correct if there wasn’t much need for changing it. Right now Norse players have to: 1- learn a build order for standard game play. 2- Learn a build order if they want to pick a relic fast. 3- Know how to play the game without early scouting 3’- (if they play water maps) Learn another BO for water maps.(I didn’t mark this as 4 since near all water maps are being dodged in my experience).
I don’t like the fact a person who knows nothing about the game can have such a great start compared to me who likes this game and spends a lot of time and energy learning it. AoM is already assymetric enough we can afford to make them more similar.
1 atty villager counts as 2. Also they don’t get their upgrades. But i do agree that they don’t lose much. I was comparing it to greeks. They also don’t lose much by reacting to it. Norse how ever is different. If he suspects a rush and then changes his build order acoordingly, If the rush doesn’t happen he is way behind now.
I like this but also some more wood would be needed aswell I think.
What about other gods? they are also not that OK either. Thor build order is way too compliacted.
By the 25th minute, I had accumulated 4,000 food, wood, and gold, despite fighting. Atlantic villagers gather resources faster than anyone.
I completely disagree. Thor has the simplest build order. He builds one type of villager, while others should focus on distributing villagers instead of scouting.
Fair, i get that pov. I like having to play differently depending on situation. One build that does everything i find boring. But i get it being a hassle to have to change things.
Theres fast BOs for relic grabs for norse. Same as for any civ. Theres lots of work around if you truly want it. But yea its part of the whole asymetry, better at some things worse at others.
And you do. Theres no scenario in which you cant tell if your opponent is rushing you. Talking 1 vs 1. If you are 4 vs 4 sure you arent exploring all your map alone, but thats what allies are for.
Yes, yes you can. You opt not to to do something greedy aka a armory build for example as thor. But you are not forced to play that way. But you for sure can if you want to.
Then you havent played the others ones much. Norse struggles the most vs it true, but other civs have to adapt to rushes as well.
You dont have to herd every game. Half the maps give you Hunt you can Just lire into your tc. You have mapa with double gold mines. You have water maps.
Btw i dont see what the big deal of this is in team games, i can Just move into my allies base and gather gold while i defend. In 1 vs 1 you trully dont have save gold.
Can even make my temple from there and defend. Theres plenty of options when theres allies around for both the Rush and the one defending.
Then what would be the point? You have almost free macro in the sense villagers dont build anything. The least you can do is sort them to a particular resource.
Its an RTS game, real strategy, adapting is part of the game. You are gonna do that at a later point regarless. You cant just go “ill do this and it works or i die” and commit to it 100% and have it work always.
Fair, i understand your pov. Even if the reverse situation has happened time and time again with norse. Old aom gaia could Just resign if a loki showed up. Worst match up in the whole history of the game.
Most civs dont get their upgrades.
Not really, you Will catch up to kronos and army wise you are stronger.
Thor struggles the least, followed by freyr, then odin, then loki
No, they do not gather resources faster than anyone. What they will have is a villager advantage due to training times.
And yea hoarding wood as atty is a very common low Elo player mistake.
25 min is quite a lot of time btw, and its missing context on what happens around it.
It’s not about the absolute numbers. The problem is that the Atlanteans can’t keep up with their resource expenditures. I can build up my base like an Egyptian, but I don’t have any free buildings. The units are very strong and take a very long time to build. I often see the Atlanteans with a completely heroic army and three palaces at the start of T3 simply because the player is trying to spend everything they’ve accumulated.
If its not about absolute numbers then they simply dont gather more than others. Now the part of not being able to spend their eco is also telling of mistakes people getting into a civ do. Yuo can absolutely keep your resources spent. You are simply having bad macro. Which mind you its very easy to fix as atty since you Just move vills around, no need for extra storage.
Try simple things. Look at a rep of yours, see at what point you begin to hoard wood and look how much time pases until you move villagers from a resource to another if at all. Look at the number of vills on wood, see if it keeps increasing.
Next game be aware if the game time and simply dont add villagers to wood if you were adding in the rec. Or move half of them to another resource and see what happens. And with the passing of games improve on it a bit.
This only happens if you heroed all your workers and then got the Prometheus upgrade for +20% eco.
That is indeed a strong eco boost but you also invest a lot into that, so it’s not entirely off to be swimming in resources even if you otherwise macro correctly.
But in the first 10 mins of the game you shouldn’t be sitting on exceess resources.
This isn’t changing. This is straight up a more difficult, and less optimized way of aging up just to face against one God.
I think we can afford to make these timings a bit more similair. Grabbing relics is no small advantage.
It is all just so rushed. Run into enemy base. Look into clues. Return immediately and start the temple. BTW in some circumstances you need to know the micro trick in order to prevent your berserk dying to TC.
IDK I don’t play thor and every whom I talked to said Armory build is the standard build for thor.
The luring technique isn’t something low players players can pull off that easily. and doube gold mine isn’t a thing. When krush is happeining even the very pixels under your TC is unsafe cause arrows just miss.
It is actually a huge deal. Becoming a dead weight to the team is a sure way for one of your teammates to leave.
No one likes to be this helpless against such a strategy so early into the game.
I wasn’t talking about that. I was talking about the numbers and the force drop. As a thor You need to remember that you shouldn’t start ur standard armory build order and should know how many gatherers you need instead of dwarfs.
The point would be why should I be forced to change so much of the stuff that I worked so hard to remember just to defend a rush? How much knowledge is required of a player in order to be able to experience the bare minimum content of the game?
Let’s say I have no build order. Should I just die in archaic age?
Well I did’t play the old game multiplayer. Just the campaign. All of the old RTS games have design flaws that weren’t apearent/important back then.
The kronos will just grab a second TC. To be honest I’m shocked by your response. I didn’t test the build orders proposed by boit to be honest cause I’m tired learning stuff for this game. But I saw from the videos that he ends up with a minimal income after aging up and a very atrocious wood situation.