Lets be clear.
GC has TT 22s, EGC 19.
22s is longer than Cataphract. CATAPHRACT!
Is in par with Arambai or War Wagon. Longer TT have Elephantos, Mangudai, Conqs and Mameluke. Every one of this units is strong in low numbers (exept EA). But no GC.
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except kipchak and EA, they’re all better than Genoese xbows, the 4 range makes them lot worse and a questionable choice over arb+pike.
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In a certain point of view, kipchaks are better than GC, because in a small time you quickly train a small group and you can raid the ■■■■ out of your enemy eco, so they have their purpose at least.
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Elite also costing all food and wood and them being cheap also helps
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GC are a strong unit, there is no denying that, their damage, HP and armor are good, and they are balanced by their high cost (almost double the wood of a standard xbow, and in castle age I’d argue that wood is more important than gold) and elite upgrade+pavise (1250f 900g), their ant-cavalry bonus it’s even offset by no bonus vs infantry (one of few archer without anti-pike bonus).
But it’s not a one man army, it’s not a cataphract, or a war wagon, or a war elephant, which even a few of them can be game changing, with the GC you must have a good number of them.
You already have to train them from a castle, a low TT would only balance that.
I think that these two video can prove my point here about italians on full land and the GC problem (especially the first one).
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Also, about the more LoS on FS, it wouldn’t make them OP in water maps more than they already are. On full water maps, you will never use FS to scout, and you wouldn’t even see enemy galleys before they can see you (FS and galleys without fletching would have the same LoS), plus, probably, the majority of your attention is already on water, so you don’t have any advantage for finding more deep fish.
The more LoS come in helps in ibrid maps where the majority of your attention will be on the land (since the action will be there) and the water is an important source of food, but not the focus of your attention (the opposite), more LoS would mean less attention and more efficiency, it’s a small bonus, but alone on some maps (4 lakes, alpine lakes and so on…) it could make the italians a good tier civ (with the GC buff of course).
Also, if you compare it with the other FS’ bonus, both japs and malay got 2 bonus (and better ones) on them (faster gathering rate+more HP and cheaper+infinithe fish traps), so italians would still be behind them on ibrids maps.
A potentially third change could be that pavise UT affect condos, on top of arbs and GC.
Now this is just an idea, they don’t need it, the changes they need are above all the one about GC, and then the more LoS on FS, but I think that could be interesting to discuss about this, because it could make the gameplay more interesting and varied.
- Condottieri affected by pavise
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So that would bring the total armor to 5/5, it would make the italians’ condos not anymore a generic unit, but unique compared to the their allies. Still, they would have less PA than an eagles and a huskarl (8 and 10) or malians’ infantry, and less MA than teutons’ infantry.
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The cost of pavise would be increase from 350f to 450f and from 150g to 250g.
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They would lose the champion upgrade to offset that, they would still have FU generic 2HS.
I thought about that because since pavise do not affect ES, I felt like it was a bit of an underwhelming tech, and I would like to see more condos that generic champions.
Pavise Shields were only used by Archers and Crossbowmen. Condotierros are also as good as 2Hs, so they do not need buffs.
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I think Italians are ok on water now, very solid. Just stop nerfing them.
Regarding land maps, the idea of buffing GC training time is very good.
However I think that the problem you get with Italians is the slow early eco without fish.
Just some free tech is what they need, like free archer armor techs. That would be a small boost for their land game, not affecting water game and late game, where Italians are already fine. It also follows the identity of italians of armored archers.
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Pavise were used by all footmen, crossbowmen, pikes, and when necessary, swordmen too, so it’s accurate.
Also the GC, often carried swords and pikes too.
2HS would still be used as an eagles-counter, but you you see more diversity in the late game than champions/halbs, also condos cost more than 2HS, to me it could be nice to see the effect and the gameplay would be more dinamic and varied.
More LoS wouldn’t be neither a nerf neither a buff for full water maps, but it would help on ibrid maps where water is secondary and you don’t befefit from having cheap techs that you don’t need (gilnets is the only exception).
True, but you can buff them too much on land, in my opinion some resources saved from age ups is enough, if then in castle age you can follow up with some powerful units, that unit can be the GC, the problem is that when the struggle to get to the point of having a castle up, you are still behind you enemy, because you can’t keep up with production.
The idea is that an Italian player should have some difficulty to get there, so the other civs have a possibility, but then he could start pushing back.
Sure, I said stop nerfing them because they get nerfed every patch!
I think that the fact that you do not need of 50% discount on doc techs is the real issue. A bonus that it is either super powerful or useless. I would give them a small help on land to help them in hybrid maps and on Arabia, which is where they are not weak. If this small help is something like a free tech that is not crucial for islands, you slightly improve just the games where they do not need the 50% discount on dock techs.
Agree that the improvement should be modest, making them still generic on land until late castle age.
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Yes I completely agree, unfortunately every small bonus on land could buff them on water too.
The ideal strategy for Italians on land is to survive until they can train GC, condos and HC (the latters, thought, is viable only in team-games). In feudal, saving 75f isn’t a bad bonus (not strong either) but they could use it to survive until castle age, then the GC (which in good numbers are powerful) can help them in a comeback, and then in imp condos.
The problem is that those 2 strategies aren’t rewarding enough if compared to the struggle to get there.
That’s why I propose the changes to the GC TT and the condos pavise.
Pavise on condos affects the game too far, TT of GC is very good. And there are a lot of people asking for it.
Talking with you, I am start thinking that the best way to balance Italians is reducing their discount on dock techs in order to improve the one on age up.
For example, in castle water battle Italians spare 150 resources from cheap age up and, say you research war galley + careening, other 365 resources from the dock discount, for a total of 515.
If you had 20% age up discount and 40% dock discount, you get a similar effect of 492 resources, but more useful on land. Similar amount of resources (490) if you get 25% age up discount and 33% dock tech discount.
On imperial Italians spare, researching galleons, dry dock and imperial age, around 1130 resources.
If you had 25% age up and 40% dock discount it is like 1135 resources, and around 1100 if you had 30% age up and 33% dock techs.
In other words, dock techs nerf is 40%, age up buffed as 15-20-25%.
Even better to help on land, dock techs 33% cheaper and age up as 20-25-30%.
Of course this is an overall nerf for Italians on water since the discount affect much more technologies that the two I have mentioned. However this makes them more enjoyable!
Please double check the maths 
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In my opinion it could be fun, maybe it’s because I don’t like the champions, but condos would have 4 attack less in comparison, and with pavise still less armore/HP than eagles/huskarls/TK (and they aren’t even fast as eagles).
The math is correct, some time ago someone else made this proposal and if I remember correctly those were the numbers (or at least they are similar).
So there are 2 things:
- You have to be careful that it’s not too similar to the bizz bonus (-33% cheap imp), so -25/30% is off the table.
- The idea came before the nerf on the FS.
So without repeating all the reasons (maybe I’ll link the old post if I find it) the more balanced compromise would be 20% disc. on age ups, and 40% on water, in the end on full water maps the Italians lose about 50-65 resources per age, while gaining something on full land/ibrid maps.
Though this has to come with some other changes, since alone isn’t a lot (just to give you an idea, in feudal they gain 25f more than now, so it’s not that much) so they would still need the reduction on TT for GC and the +2 Line of Sight on their FS.
I do not think that the Byzantine bonus is an issue. For instance China has every tech cheaper, and this is not an issue for several other civ bonus. Like faster training time for Aztec and britons archers.
Sure 20-25-30 age up and 33% dock tech is a nerf on water. If you think rebalancing is needed, extra Los is fine. Starring a bonus per age is typically way better than a fixed value, that is why I propose a varying percentage.
TT for GC is needed in any case in my opinion.
It’s not to belittle bizz, they still save a lot more with cheap counter units, it’s to avoid having 2 bonus too similar (30% and 33%), think that right now italians and bizz save about the same on age up.
It’s not just for the water nerf (33% disc. on dock would mean that they can no longer keep up with vikings), with 20/25/30% disc. think about their condos rush, it’s simply too much.
To me 20 and 40, is enough, if I have time I will make all the all the calculations.
Yeah, 20 age up and 40 dock techs is fine. Still a nerf on water, but I would be happier when getting Italians on land
Still 20-25-30 age up and 33% dock is better for land, but I like also 20 age up and 40 dock.
This sounds as a much much better balancing.
Yes I think that would be appreciated by everyone.
Italians are good, they have unique units that counter in different ways than everyone else, they could have a unique way of play the game, add more dinamicity and different gameplay, that is why I would like to see more of them.
Here it is:
So GC, by lowering the TT could be a little bit more viable, and I think it would be enough.
For condos, letting them be affected by pavise could probably make them more viable and, at the same time, not making them OP for other civs (since only italians have pavise).
Except that unless you’re facing Vikings the enemy will attack you with fire ships, and Italian fishing ships would have +2 LoS, so they could definitely escape better. And you’re overlooking the convenience of not needing to scout manually for your ships to find new fish.
On such maps Italian are a legit civ, for instance in NAC3 they beat Mongols (which are a super agressive civ on hybrid maps) So no need for a buff there either.
In what world Japanese and Malay bonus are better? Cheaper fishing ships = more of them = more HP and more efficiency. Italian can’t emulate the infinite fish traps but this bonus mainly kicks in in super late game when wood dries up and you can afford tons of harbours to protect your vulnerable fishing fleet. Ad by then, Italian had tons of occasion to get the upperhand.
Condos aren’t made to be your main troop. Either you use them as anti-gunpowder, or when you don’t have time/ressources to go all the way up from militia to champs. This change could happen I guess, but it would be more for flavour than to actually change the way you play the unit. It could also not happen at all, because it’s low priority and no rule say a team unit shouldn’t be generic for its “home civ”, since Berber Genitours are 100% generic too.
It wasn’t a nerf, it was a bugfix.
Other civs, like Magyar or Bulgarian, are just as slow. Those civs have military bonuses to go through early game, Italian have the cheaper age up and the super efficient fishing whenever it’s available.
Told it elsewhere, let’s say it again for the sake of completion: tjis would definitely impact water play, as this would make archers landing super easy and convenient for Italian, while also making them more resilient to enemy archer landing.
You can totally use dock techs on hybrid maps. If neither side got full control of water in feudal the struggle will continue in Castle. War galley also makes your demo ships that much stronger on shallows.
And I still don’t get what prevents you from using normal xbows. For instance Japanese work just fine in Castle even tho their cheaper drop off sites become negligible by Castle age, and their xbows are never going to be better than generic.
Only changes to Italian in DE I remember are normal Genoese xbow buffed to fire as fast as normal xbows (that made them viable to be produced in Castle) and the fishing ship discoutn being fixed.
You’re speaking as if Italian were like a Magikarp or something until Castle and needed to become a monster once they reach it.
It could lead to Italian aging even faster and paying slightly more for War galley/Galleon, sure, but they would get it way earlier than their opponent since they aged faster.
Well, you could also add Hera’s where they are B tier, and there are Ornlu’s tier list vids where he deems the genoese xbow good. It’s not an unanimous opinion like say, the one on ele archers.