A few balance suggestions (early September 2020)

I sometimes publish a list of balance changes I would like to see implemented in the game, and it evolves with what I see in matches, the critics I read and of courses patches.

First, some general ideas about civilisations and balance:
Reflexions on a few civilisations and units:

  • Byzantines are a weird case. Historically they had powerful soldiers, in small numbers, and technological advantage. The game half reflects that, but the cheaper trash and the lack of two key technologies (bloodlines and blast furnace) with no special bonus hurts a lot. I don’t know what should be done with them, and I want their identity of “fire ship, cataphract” civilisation to be kept, but the rest of the tech tree may need some thinking. Also, the civ is alright but never shines strongly (or perhaps just on water and versus Goths). I think they should keep the jack of all trades aspects, but add a bit on a particular strength. The trash units (skirmisher and pikeman) and camel discount could be removed: they should be counting more on “professional” soldiers (champions, heavy cavalry, archers, gunpowder, cataphracts), and not really on camels either. All of this is due to the history of the game, and this is also why they don’t have bloodlines. An eco bonus, perhaps another monk bonus, and a heavy cavalry bonus would be welcome in my opinion.

  • I think the developers should give Goths them a long time without update to really evaluate how they perform now.

  • Italians are a bit underwhelming, except on water of course.

  • Khmer got an economic buff and that is really fortunate, but now I think they should be even more pushed to use elephants.

  • Koreans are certainly better with the -20% wood cost on all units, but they could use a small buff still.

  • Lithuanians are in my opinion the worst civilisation in the game in terms of game logic. They are not a very special civilisation, but rather quite unimaginative. I propose to reorder their bonuses a bit.

  • Portuguese need a little early bonus. I propose a small archer buff.

  • Saracens should be pushed even more towards using camels (instead of archers).

  • Tatars might still be a bit weak. However the buffs I suggest for cavalry archer, camels, steppe lancer and hand cannoneer should vastly help.

  • Turks need something, and I suppose nobody knows what for years now, as lacking pikemen and elite skirmishers is a problem in the mid game and in trash wars. I would argue to keep their tech tree as it is but to buff them in some other way. A general improvement of hand cannoneers is also required by an increasing part of the community.

  • Vietnamese definitely got an appropriate eco bonus (wood saved) and isn’t too far from being balanced. I think their Rattan archers and elephants could be helped a bit.

  • Knights and Paladins have been given bonuses too generously since DE came out, to new civilisations and to Teutons.

  • As a remark on knights, Franks used to have iconic paladins, and before DE came out they were still the best in the game for a long time… but not by a very large margin, as anyone would have considered giving them just +5% more HP (to 200) overpowered. Meanwhile, a lot of people were considering them to be quite monochromatic: either knights would work or nothing would. In DE, with the great boom of Cumans with faster paladins, the new armour of Teutons and of course the Lithuanians with more attack from Relics, and now the Bulgarians with faster attacking knights from Stirrups, the Frank knight rush is definitely not anymore the best in the game (which was already discussible, Berbers being probably better), and their paladins neither. And historically, the Franks and maybe the Teutons should have the best knights/paladins. Now, I don’t think their paladins should be buff, but rather all the others be nerved. The developers tend to prefer balancing the game through buffs than nerves (globally speaking), and that creates a problem of perpetual inflation: everyone has to continue getting more bonus to compensate. And I am all for civilisations which feel really special, but to achieve a better balance, some will just have to be nerved.

Now, let’s move to the details. First the most serious propositions (however subtle), and then ideas for balance, but also to make the game more fun or accurate. In particular to make civilisations more unique (have Khmer use more elephants than cavalry, etc.):
Serious balance:
Using a bit more scorpions, swordsmen, camels should be encouraged. Elephants should be weak versus pikes, but they are just too ridiculously weak given costs, and can not run away like all the other cavalry units.

  • Team bonuses apply dynamically, depending on the current alliances.

  • Heavy scorpions +1 pierce armour (up to 8).

  • Heavy scorpions minimum range -1 (to 1).

  • Camels -5 gold, +5 food (for 60f, 55g total).

  • Camels +3 against elephants, heavy camels +5, imperial camels +8 (for a total of +12/+23/+26).

  • Pikemen -3 bonus vs elephants, halberdiers -5 (for a total, including cavalry bonus damage, of +30/+44/+55 for spearman/pikeman/halberdier). This is my way of buffing elephants.

  • Eagle warriors cost +5 food (for 25f, 50g total).

  • One more pile of starting gold for each player (800g).

  • Make Long swordsman upgrade -40f (160f, 65g).

  • Atonement -150 gold (for 175 g total, which is still a lot for technology not often used).

  • Dry dock -150 food, -100 gold (to 450f, 300g).

  • Town patrol -100 food, -100 gold (to 200f).

  • Cavalry archers/heavy frame delay reduced to 7/5 (from 10).

  • Hand cannoneer and janissary projectile speed doubled. Both units get an additional +2 bonus vs. pikemen.

  • Elite battle elephants attack was nerved by 2 (16 to 14) in DE, and blast damage reduced from 50% to 25% (for non- and elite). To me these changes are inexplicable: the elite battle elephant is far from overpowered, they are very easily and effectively countered by pikes, and the civilisations with battle elephants are averagely quite weak. The upgrade is also quite expensive. To me these changes must be canceled, or at least the first one, as 16 is the right amount of attack for this unit.

  • Steppe lancer: reduce cost by -5 gold (to 70f, 40g).

  • Elite steppe lancer: pierce armour 2 (up from 1), fire rate down to 2 (from 2.3).

  • Supplies technology also affects swordsman-like units : - 10 food for Berserk, Woad Raider, Teutonic Knight, Jaguar Warrior, Shotel Warrior, Throwing Axeman, Samurai, Kamayuk, Condottiero and Gbeto. - 5 food for Karambit Warrior. I don’t think anyone is going to argue one of these UU was the best, nor that food is really the limiting factor (at least by the small change margin I propose).

  • New technology at the monastery: Cure, costing 175 gold. It doubles the healing rate of monks. Not all civilisations would have access to it, in the Castle Age. Byzantines would get it for free.



  • Maghrabi Camels is too expensive compared to its effect: -200 food (to 500, 300g).


  • I think Stirrups affecting knights is a bit taking the Konnik’s place. I argue Konnik/Elite’s base rate of fire should be 2.2/2, and Stirrups affecting light cavalry, knights and konnik reduce the rate of fire by 25% instead of 33%.
  • Appoint the Slavs’ “Free supplies” bonus.
  • The stone bonus on forums is nice, but it could be pushed to -75 stone.


  • Take away parthian tactics. Why hand them parthian tactics when they have terrible cavalry archers and it does not benefit the arambai?
  • Give back the Elite Arambai their +2 cavalry archer armour. Please notice this is only the Elite Arambai, which is less dominant in Imp than it’s Castle Age counterpart.
  • Howdah -150 food (to 250f, 300w).


  • Perhaps they could get Blast Furnace? And the elite cataphract could lose 1 attack and 1 bonus damage vs infantry.
  • Appoint cavalry the +1/+2 melee armour in Castle/Imperial Age which is now the Teutons’. Then cataphract/elite melee armour -1. It could also apply to only heavy cavalry, which would still not have bloodlines, so they would be powerful, but not as much as Teuton paladins are today. Moreover that suits the idea of heavily armoured Byzantine soldiers.
  • Team bonus: Change from 50% faster healing to 100%.


  • Stronghold is a bit of an awkward technology, Celtic towers and castles not being particularly good other than that, and missing that +1 range from Bracer. So either add the effect +1 range, or make it reduce the keep cost to 100 stone 25 wood, or reduce the cost of the tech to 200 food, 100 gold.


  • An option is to make them lose paladins, to the profit of better Steppe Lancers. Moreover, the civilisation would still be very strong without them, and have lots of very powerful options early on and in the late game (they have very good trash, and good siege).
  • I think to help their cavalry archers and galleons, they should receive bracer. However, not to make them too strong, they should lose chemistry. This however would complicate the Kipchack balance.
  • Make their Steppe lancers 10/20% cheaper in Castle/Imperial Age. This could be offsetted by the lack of the last cavalry armour.
  • Their late game economy is incredible, at least in terms of upgrades. They should probably lose one of the final economy techs (it could just be gold shaft mining or guilds).


  • Boost the age up bonus to either +150 food, +150 gold OR +100 food, +100 wood and +100 gold.
  • Royal heirs: cost reduced -150 gold (to 300f, 150g).
  • Team bonus: add the possibility to garrison 5 units in outposts, and also erases the stone cost.


  • Foragers bonus reduced to +15%.
  • Cavalry HP bonus does not apply to cavalry archers anymore. Franks did not use them, and they are quite terrible anyway.
  • Team bonus highly useless: extend to +3 or change entirely (one idea: hoardings is accessible to all allies in Castle Age, half-priced).


  • Modify the population bonus from +10 limit population in Imperial Age (IA) to a percentage (e.g. +5% to keep the 200 pop limit).


  • Andean sling cost -150 gold, and food cost changed to wood (to 200 w, 150 g).
  • Addition to the team bonus: farms are sized 2x2 instead of 3x3, and have +50% HP. OR Camps included, but in a bonus reduced to 25% faster as it would affect the early game.


  • The Elephant Archer has been buffed a bit, but it still heavily struggle to find its identity, and even more since the Ballista Elephant exists. It might be the must useless Unique Unit in the game. One idea would be to make it particularly good against archers, as it already is efficient. Then appoint a +3/+5 bonus versus archers.
  • Elite elephant archers: +1 attack (for 8 total).
  • Elite elephant archer upgrade -100 food, -100 gold (to 900 f, 700 g).


  • Monk -25 gold (for 75 g).
  • Monasteries, universities -50% cost, +20% HP.
  • Free Ballistics. This would be very nice for archers. Moreover physics sort of started in Italy, and they certainly had a lot of scholars in the Renaissance era.
  • Fishing ships are 5/10/15/20 % cheaper in Dark/F/C/I Age.
  • Very debatable and unsure: replace the cheaper Aging up bonus with: Wheelbarrow, Hand Cart can be researched in the camps.
  • Genoese Crossbowmen/Elite training time reduced by 4 sec (to 18/15).
  • Receive Heavy Scorpion.


  • Samurai (non-elite): +5 HP to 65. A comparison with its swordsman counterpart is really not flattering, unique units set aside.
  • Extend team bonus to all war ships.


  • Their changes since the release of DE are a bit odd to me. Elite battle elephants have been generally nerved, which I really don’t think they deserved! Back buffing them as I proposed would be very beneficial to Khmer in general. The farming bonus is nice and probably necessary. Then they have FU Hussars, which is nice, but is not really what Khmers represent. I think they could lose the Hussar upgrade without being too bad, with the other changes I proposed (elephants and scorpions included) to make the elephant identity stronger.
  • Battle elephants move 20% faster (instead of 15%).
  • Ballista elephants’ speed increased to 0.85 (same as battle elephants), and benefit from the bonus for faster elephants.
  • Ballista elephants +1 attack (for 9 and 10 (elite)), and +2 additional attack bonus vs buildings, and +2 against siege weapons.
  • Elite ballista elephants +40 HP (to 330), +1 range (up to 6), +0.1 blast radius (to 0.2).
  • “Normalised” archery range: get access to thumb ring, but parthian tactics or arbalester (or both) is removed.


  • The -20% wood on units and the navy is nice but does not really help giving them an identity. I think they should become again defined as a mangonel/onager civilisation. On the water they are probably a bit too powerful now, so keeping this bonus capped to -15% wood was fine for me.
  • Shinckichon also halves the damages ally onagers inflict (this technology in the state being is way too expansive, even if its effect is nice).
  • Onager and Siege Onager upgrades are 50% cheaper.
  • Debatable, but appoint them +1 range on mangonels from Castle Age. A lot of people don’t like that because of the effects on Black Forest, but it is not quite as played as it used to be.
  • Koreans now have a strong naval bonus with cheaper navy. However Panokseon feels a bit weird and expansive. So perhaps this technology effect should be free (or included in the Elite Turtle ship upgrade), and it should be replaced by their current Tower range bonus (which could then be a flat +2 range once technology researched) and their old fortification bonus, but boosted with the inclusion of “fortifications build 50% faster”. And this new tech could cost 300 wood, 150 stone.


  • They are by far the most ill-designed civilisation in The Last Khans. Being monk, trash and heavy cavalry focused is not a bad idea, but it is just wrongly executed.
  • Take heresy out of the tech tree. That would provide a way to better counter their powerful heavy cavalry. And historically I understand the good monasteries are a tribute to paganism, but then it would “make sense” that they could be converted. Perhaps to offset that, offer free Faith (which is really expensive), which would complement the long time it took to convert Lithuanians to Christianity.
  • Monks walk 20% faster. It would hence be easier for Lithuanians to collect Relics.
  • Hill Forts is coming too late: the only units it could help countering are crossbows and mangonels, but the player must have a castle anyway… So it should be replaced, and the bonus should be free: +1 range of Town Centre per Age, starting in Feudal (for +1/+2/+3). That way, Town Centres could protect the town more effectively from the Feudal Age and be “safe” from Mangonels.
  • It could be replaced by the relic bonus, as CA unique tech. The tech should be 250 food, 150 gold. It could have the additional effect to make one relic appear near the Castle, or one monk holding it.
  • Another, better idea however would be to take the “pikemen and skirmishers walk 10% faster” out entirely, and to have Tower Shields in the Castle Age. Its new effect however would be +1/+1 armour. It would also affect Genitours. Its new price: 300f, 200g.
  • The new Imperial Unique Tech could be “Uprising”, appointing 20% faster attack to pikemen and skirmishers. That would be a lot more powerful than their current state. It would cost 700f, 400g.
  • The new Leitis cost (70f, 50g) is ridiculously overpowering the unit. Either it has to be nerved (-30 HP to 70/100, or -20 HP, -1 pierce armour) or the cost has to be increased back (to 80 gold). I would rather have a unit that differentiates from paladins. For example, in its current state and even ignoring the relic bonus, it performs better in (almost) every way than the Boyar, while being globally cheaper, and much cheaper giving gold a higher value. It is almost the same price as a Steppe Lancer!
  • In order to make the cavalry a bit less dominant, and to be more specialised in being “powerful in attack, less in defense”, and give a chance to other paladin civilisations: lose last cavalry armour tech, but earn last infantry armour tech.
    This way the fully upgraded halberdier would be walking at a normal (squires) speed, attack 20% faster, and have an armour +4/+5, which is better than now. The FU skirmisher would also be a bit better than now, but the FU paladin with 3 or 4 relics would be a bit less dominant. On 1 vs 1 against a Frankish paladin, the Lithuanian paladin would win with 3 relics, but lose with 1 and with 2 the Lithuanian would barely win. But the Frank one should be a bit better against arrow fire (which 12 HP does, but is very small).
  • Team bonus: useless in the state being. Either push it to +35% faster monasteries, or to “relics generate also food”.


  • Farimba +200f, +150g (for 850f, 550g total).


  • Not only do villagers kill wolves in one hit, but also do wolves then provide a 100 huntable food, which can be collected by a single villager.
  • Extend the team bonus to all kinds of archers (UU, skirmishers, cavalry archers and hand cannoneers).


  • Team bonus: extend to eagle scout (from Feudal Age, and just +1 LoS).


  • War elephant - 20 food (to 180f, 75g).


  • Foot archers walk 10% faster.
  • The gold bonus is particularly difficult to balance between the early and late game. Take it back to -15%, but include technologies (and buildings? I think not, but that would be just the bombard tower, the wonder and the Feitoria) in the -15% bonus. This option (as the -20% bonus) allows the three militia Drush without collecting any gold (and getting loom).
  • Monks excluded from the gold bonus.
  • Feitoria also provides the 20 population it consumes (in the population limit of course).
  • Elite Organ gun upgrade -250 food, +100 gold (to 1000f, 600g).
  • Elite Organ gun does not have minimum range.
  • Arquebus: all gunpowder (inc. cannon galleon and bombard tower) projectile speed are (also) 100% faster after the technology.
  • Addition to the (weak) team bonus: trade units +50% HP, +2/+2 armour. Even then, their team bonus would probably be the only one in the game to be entirely worthless in 1 vs 1.


  • Camel riders walk 10% faster.
  • Caravan free, or all market technologies half-priced.
  • Zealotry - 150g (for 750f, 550g).
  • Mameluke +3 bonus damage vs elephants, elite +5.
  • Make the transport ship bonus +10 carry capacity instead of +5.


  • Take free supplies away and appoint it to the Bulgarians. Perhaps replace it by free squires.


  • Silk armour becomes +1/+1 armour, and costs the same.
  • I like a lot how the Keshik was redesigned to become a “medium cavalry” unit, particularly strong versus archers (a bit like Tarkans). I would still say increase the price by +5 food and +5 gold. But appoint +1/+2 bonus (-/Elite) versus all archers.
  • In the state being, the team bonus is a bit useless. Change it entirely to: Cavalry deals +1 damage versus buildings.


  • OP Paladins after the new armour bonus, where the rest of the civilisation is already really powerful. I know Teutons don’t shine on open maps, but it’s acceptable for such a defensive civilisation. Keep the bonus only for infantry. Perhaps transfer the cavalry bonus to the Byzantines.


  • Sipahi is not accessible fast enough: make it 50% faster to research, -150 food (to 200f, 150g).
  • All gold mines are worth 1,000 gold. This is on the same level as the Mayan bonus, but just for gold. Perhaps in this case the mining bonus should be slightly reduced (to +15%).
  • Team bonus: is underwhelming, especially as it comes so late. Push it to 30% faster training time to train gunpowder units and to research gunpowder technologies (Chemistry, Bombard Tower, Canon Galleon and Elite, and Unique Techs related).


  • The bonus HP only applies to archery range foot archers (archer line and skirmishers).
  • Small push for the rattan archer (-10 wood e.g. to 40 w 45 g), would be fair compared to the Cho Ko Nu.
  • Add free ballistics.
  • Increase the Chatras effect by an additional +20 HP, for a total +70 HP.
  • Giving them husbandry is the same kind of mistake as giving Hussar to Khmer: their slow Battle elephant should get better, but not more generic. Now that they have a good eco bonus, take husbandry away again.


  • Berserk (non-elite only): +1 melee armour. In the current state it is not quite as good as its swordsman counterpart although being a Unique Unit, more expensive.
  • Berserkergang: regeneration also applies to villagers.
  • Longboats/elite: +2/+3 attack vs turtle ships (to offset the lack of fire ships: Viking ships are more and more fragile on water versus the Koreans).
  • One possibility would have them to lose Hand Cart. However this is a significant nerf and shoud be handled with parcimony, for example against a small buff at the same time.

Now the general ideas. Please remember those are rather suggestions:

General ideas:

  • A possibility for Steppe Lancer would be to emphasise the “raider” identity providing them a bonus vs villagers (like +4/+6 so that FU Castle/Imperial Age kill a villager in 3/2 hits). That could also simply affect the Tatars.
  • Depending on the first proposed buffs to the hand cannoneer, elite janissary could get a precision of 60%, and hand cannoneer and elite janissary +5 base HP (to 40/45). If this was still not enough, both units could get an additional +2 bonus damage vs infantry.
  • In the late game, gunpowder units are always very useful to have, but globally gunpowder focused civilisations do not at all have the highest winning rates (Italians, Turks, Portuguese, Spanish). Just an idea would be to buff them when they are actually already strong to give them an even larger chance to finish the game. A new tech (e.g. “musket”) could be available after researching chemistry, either at the university or at the archery range. It would give Thumb Ring to gunpowder units (better firing rate, increased accuracy) like the hand cannoneer, the unique units, and why not faster firing cannon galleon. Of course this would require some adjustments so that Arquebus remains powerful (or even would be buffed). It could also just provide the hand cannoneer & janissary buffs of the previous line.
  • To nerve Tower rushing: Building a Blacksmith is mandatory to have access to towers. This is a possible way to nerf power rush even more.


  • Warwolf: also gives a +40 attack bonus vs ships and siege weapons.


  • An alternative to taking Parthian tactics away would be to let it affect the Arambai, and then reduce the base pierce armour of the Elite Arambai to 1. However, Parthian could even remain as it is, but it does not make a lot of sense.
  • Elite Arambai +1 melee armour (to 1).

(Here, of course not all ideas would be interesting at the same time.)

  • They are in a weird situation now, where they are not underpowered, but they don’t really feel special anymore, except for the cataphract. For historical reasons their access to powerful units that they would probably want to avoid in the late game (paladin, elite camel, hussar in particular) given the other options feels weird. I don’t have a definite opinion on that, but a small redesign would not be crazy. They are jack-of-all-trades for sure, but in almost every situation there is another civilisation which could be just as flexible which would do things better than them. They also lack a start bonus. I provide a lot of options here, amongst which a few (but not all at the same time) would be nice.
  • Lose the -25% on skirmishers, pikemen, camel riders.
  • Men at arms +10 HP, for 50/70/70/80 on MAA/Long Swordsmen/Two Handed Swordsmen/Champions.
  • They could get bloodlines instead of blast furnace. Then cataphract and elite both lose 10 HP (to 100/140).
  • Small eco buff: camps (mill, lumber camp, mining camp), markets work 50% faster.
  • All university techs cost 25% less.
  • Greek fire additional effect: gives access to fire towers (costing 100g, 125 stone). Then these should be redesigned not to look exactly as keeps. They could also get a base 7 range (instead of 5 now), but only 4 attack. They could be affected by arrowslits by +3 (as keeps).


  • Rocketery: also gives +1 scorpion range.
  • A possible small nerf could be to lose the 10 population Town Centre. It would mean their starting villagers would have to build at least one house so that they could train villagers after getting loom. This however would make them even harder to play for beginners/average players, so highly questionable.


  • Bearded axe: also adds a +1 or +2 attack bonus vs pikes. In its current state it is quite useless for its price. Or overpriced.


  • A little eco boost possibility: the hunters work as Khmer farmers, they don’t need to drop off food anywhere, and it is collected continuously. This kind of bonus should not be generalised though, but it compliments the Goth small hunting bonus. This is just an idea and does not pretend to be balanced. Otherwise erase the hunting bonus damage, and just keep the carry capacity.


  • Atheism has the additional effect of doubling the price of faith and heresy technologies for all enemy or neutral civilisations, (or even allies and the Hun player?) or even all monastery technologies. This is not overpowered on 1 vs 1 as Huns have very bad monks, and this would only come in the late Imperial Age. It would generate an interesting pressure for opponents to research those technologies before the Huns would develop the tech. Also, rename this technology “Tengrism”.
  • What would you think of taking Paladin out of the tech tree? For balance I am unsure they need it, and for history they definitely don’t, as now they could be replaced by Steppe Lancers. Just asking here. In this case Marauders could also grant Tarkans and Steppe Lancers +1 melee armour.


  • Imperial camels: +1 melee armour, +8 bonus damage vs all elephants.
  • Lose halberdier. They have very good trash other than that, and they have the Imperial Camel.
  • Could be appointed battle elephants. Then they would have to receive some kind of bonus?
  • Villager discount could be reduced to -10/15/15/20 %.
  • Shatagni also grants +10 HP to hand cannoneers.
  • Team bonus: extend to battle elephants and eagle warriors (but for only +2 vs buildings for them).


  • Masonry, architecture, are free. The Italians could use a buff, and this would nicely compliment the Italian religious history and the Renaissance.
  • All university techs -50% cost.
  • Silk Road -100 food (to 400f 200g).
  • Perhaps make condottieri available from Castle Age, with -20 HP which they automatically would get at Imperial Age.


  • If they were to need yet another bonus now to help them defending in the early game, we could try this: When reaching Feudal Age, all palisade walls and gates get replaced by stone walls/gates.
  • Houses, camps +50% HP. To make them a bit harder to raid in the early game.
  • Free arrowslits.
  • Free fortified walls.


  • Tower shield effect could also simply display “additional armour for pikemen and skirmishers”, meaning +2 infantry and pikeman type/+2 archer and skirmisher type armour (resp.). This would be as or more powerful than the current effect, at least for the pikemen. In this case the last infantry armour upgrade could be appointed to Lithuanians.
  • If non of the changes I suggested were applied, then: Possibly loose squires.
  • Relic bonus capped at +3 (14+7 is already 21…) (if they did not lose the cavalry armour tech).
  • If one day the Byzantines were to be rebalanced to be appointed new bonuses for stronger units, their cheaper trash units (pikes/skirms) bonus could be given to the Lithuanians, instead of faster walking.
  • Another suggestion to replace the current team bonus: It could also simply be the “monks walking 20% faster” bonus.


  • If a military unit kills a huntable (deer, boar, or in this case wolf), the animal rots as if a villager killed it. In other words, food can still be collected from it.
  • An idea for a small boost: whenever they research the light cavalry upgrade, all their scouts are transformed into Magyar hussars. That would work just once though.
  • Another small boost idea: All stable units cost -15% food. Then knights would be 51 food instead of 60
  • Add Steppe Lancers to the tech tree. They would anyway be highly redundant with Hussars or Magyar Huszars.


  • Take squires out of the tech tree (their trash units are just too good, and they get FU camels).


  • An heterodox option to balance the gold bonus would be -20% in DA and FA, and -15% CA and IA.


  • One out of the box idea: Camels available at stables in Feudal Age (but with -20 HP, which they would automatically get when reaching CA). This would open new FA camel rush strategies.
  • Trade units move 10% faster.


  • Get free Sappers.


  • Take halberdier out of the tech tree, and go with the “garbage infantry” idea all the way.
  • Possibly, silk armour also affects camels (including flaming camels). The only issue with that is that it is redundant with the Indian bonus.
  • Steppe Lancer bonus vs villagers (+4/6).


  • Crenellation could also include the former effect of Persian “boiling oil”.


  • +1 pierce armour/age from Castle Age on either just light cavalry or all cavalry units (including camels, excluding cavalry archers). That would provide a total 5/8 pierce armour in Post-Castle/Post-Imperial Age for light cavalry. This is a way to address both Castle Age and very late game issues: they lack pikemen and elite skirmishers. More pierce armour on cavalry, especially their very good light cavalry line means it is easier for them to counter archers of all kinds, thus kind of making up for lacking elite skirmishers. Moreover, more pierce armour on camels would make these more resistant to archers, and therefore provide a very good cavalry-killing unit. It could arguably be overpowered, but I think it should be tried.
  • Another possibility to help them with gold/economy would be to offer them 0% tax at the market on either wood or food. I would argue for wood.
  • Artillery also increases bombard cannon attack vs buildings by 20%.
  • Each forum OR castle OR just starting forum generates gold at a relic rate.


  • Archers, skirmishers +2 attack bonus vs villagers. (Depending on how powerful new Vietnamese are.) OR Skirmishers +1 vs siege.


  • Berserk, elite Berserk : +1 attack bonus vs buildings and eagle warriors (for +3/+4 vs each).
  • Berserkergang: other possibilities: regeneration also applies to longboats OR reduced cost (to 650f, 300g).
  • Allow longboats to carry 5 units.
1 Like

This is not a few. It’s hard to adapt to so many buff. You should also suggest which buff prioritize over other.


Stopped reading after this… This is ridiculous and shows that you have a biased for improving the civs you play

Yeah buff arambai? What Elo are you? Never played Arena or what?


I have a better idea. Give Mongols Ring Archer Armor and Mangudais should have 0 frame delay. Also Drill should unlock Cobra Cars.


i was going to respond to this guys changes earlier but gave up when i saw how ridiculous some of them were, including the mangudai change.


It’s like we and OP are playing 2 different games. He wants to buff Imp camels and Goth Lategame, and Khmer Elephants. And he doesnt want to take away husbandry, just a buff…


Buffing Imp Camels and Khmer Eles were more hilarious than buffing Mangudai.


First, never use the format of “… OR … OR … OR … and MAYBE …” with 5 completely different options. Anyone can throw out 10-50 wild ideas for each civ and say that it’s a balance suggestion. Besides, how am I supposed to argue if no matter what I say you use the argument “but I proposed like 10 alternatives, one of them must be good”.
Second, some buffs are completely unnecessary, such as several Viking buffs (they are already A-tier or S-tier civ), Mangudai frame delay reduction, Goth buffs, Khmer Elephant buffs (they are already the best elephants).
Third, some of the changes are too lengthy. Did you really need to make 5-10 changes to every civ? The same effect can generally be achieved by fewer number of more substantial changes.
Fourth, reworks of civs are unacceptable. Byzantines are a trash civ because they are made like that.


And then you proceed to make a huge list of buffs. Sounds legit.


Well, that is indeed a very large list of ideas. Some of them are interesting, lots of them are not that much plausible, as has been pointed out.

But instead of bashing Horapallas for sharing his ideas with us, I suggest to focus on the interesting ones. Let’s discuss constructively, not destructively!


I agree on this, but I can’t take opinions or ideas from someone who wants to buff khmer, imeprial camel, arambai and mangudai


This would be pretty cool.

I like a lot of your proposals tbh, I take some times for some constructive comment!


I agree. But he has so many terrible ideas. That it’s hard to sift through and find the ones that aren’t terrible…

Buffing mongols, vikings, khmer, Franks,arambai,gosh it’s too much. Maybe when i have time ill sift through and possibly find decent ones like the ones you quoted…

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Are you “Deathcounter”?

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I’m totally stealing that btw.


I wil start with some civs:

I agree that a small eco buff helps. But why removing the discount on counter units? It is so signature.

Fine with the Greek fire buff…

Not necessary but fine imo

Here I really like the supply idea!

I would like this

That tech is pretty underwhelming, fine of you buff it.

These are minor changes. Chinese may need a large nerf, but only if the other top civs are nerfed as well. Since you game a limited nerf to eagles, this is fine for Chinese

It should be sufficient a second effect of the imp UT that adds to your kips only +1 range. I think this would be sufficient. Otherwise fine with bracer…

I will take a look to the other civs later!

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There are some good ideas, some bad ideas. But it’s really way too many ideas to be discussed in a single thread!

Yeah it’s too expensive. Maybe better no gold actually, 300f or 200f only.

Defense techs should generally not cost gold (think town watch, spears, skirms, masonry/architecture)


Other than other trebs and rams, why? Don’t trebs kill most ships and siege in 1 hit? Warwolf already beat other trebs in treb wars, and while I doubt you can hit moving siege rams with a treb effectively, I don’t think helping them beat their counter in late game is a good idea


Who? No i am not. my ingame name is “Holz” which is german for wood

All right, I am going to try to answer to the important comments. Apologies for the long delay.

First, I think it’s not because I made some mistakes - admittedly I did - that I don’t convey interesting ideas. However such a long post should be indeed better structured, so I am going to change my initial list, indicating what I think is important and what isn’t, and is just a suggestion. As for the mistakes I made, sometimes it’s just out of thinking one dimensionally (like the mangudai buff proposal, which to be honest would not change as much as a lot of people wrote as it would just be by a little bit and come to Imp; it is a bad idea anyhow), or as relicats from the past.

Just to be clear though, I think the changes I propose in lot of cases would not make a huge difference but be rather small adjustments, which should be accounted globally (e.g. buffing a bit Imperial Camel would come while nerfing (a bit) Indian economy, and more significantly taking halberdier away. Likewise I suggest to take Hussar out of the Khmer tech tree. I don’t quite want to buff the Goths, other tan just make their population bonus apply dynamically with the total population cap (I wrote 10% which is indeed a 10 pop buff in a 200 pop game, but it could be 5% too). Then for instance (small) Viking changes I did propose while knowing they are A to S tier are indeed all buffs, but those really are units/techs balance suggestions. I realise how it is complicated then to argue for those: I actually think those should be evened with some other nerfs; however I still stand by the assertion (non-elite) Beserk is underwhelming compared to the long swordsman, are Berserkergang is overpriced for its current value.

About reworking civilisations, I know this doesn’t quite fall into the “balance” section. However my argument here was more historical than anything else: in the end Byzantine army should be high in quality, and not only through cataphracts. A rework might mess with the current balance of one civilisation and this is the main objective of most people - and mine too in the long run. I simply think balance is progressively being achieved for each new civilisation, and in this case it could also happen progressively, one small change after an other, were the devs to choose that path (which they probably won’t).

Actually that would make sense to me for Town Patrol.

My intention here was actually to give an even more decisive edge in Treb wars battles. However, all things considered, Britons are already quite strong.

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