A Few Honest Suggestions Regarding the New DLC

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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Dear Age of Empires IV Development Team,

Greetings. I believe it is essential that you understand the following issues clearly:

  1. Obviously, the Jin Dynasty doesn’t qualify as a Base Civilization in terms of its workload; it’s merely a variant civilization. With the exception of its landmarks, nearly all of its building and unit models are reused assets taken from the Chinese and Mongolian civilizations, with only simple model edits and texture replacementsAlthough. it is likely a base civilization is even less than that of the Sengoku Daimyo, a Variant Civilization whose new units are almost all fully newly modeled with ultra-high-resolution textures.What I find most incomprehensible is that Japan’s historically insignificant third-rate cavalry has been given unique models, yet the historically famous Iron Pagoda does not have an independent model.Even worse, the Jin Dynasty, Although it is likely a base civilization, does not have a single genuinely original model — everything is merely low-effort modifications of existing assets. This is simply a huge joke.

  2. I pre-ordered Age of Empires IV on its release and every subsequent DLC immediately upon launch. I have always supported this game with 1000% enthusiasm, and with over 1,500 hours of playtime.However, while the price of DLC remains unchanged, the content has been reduced to an unprecedented low level, and I must express my dissatisfaction.At the same time, I support the official release of more DLC each year, possibly in the form of Variant Civilizations, but the pricing should be adjusted accordingly.

  3. Of course, the Jin Dynasty civilization was most likely just a temporary addition for the sake of campaign diversity. After all, a new campaign featuring only China against China would have felt far too monotonous. What’s more, the developers didn’t even mention a new civilization in the first-half DLC during their early promotions. Releasing a DLC with only campaigns would have made the content seem rather thin, and multiplayer players would not have been satisfied. That said, as I’ve always maintained: if it’s going to be done, it should be done well. I believe that way, more people will be willing to pay for it.Even if you keep the price unchanged while cutting content, you should at least show more sincerity.As a Yue Fei-themed DLC, this was an excellent opportunity to win strong support from Chinese players, and we were willing to pay for it. Yet many signs suggest you are at risk of ruining everything.The Chinese community currently has three major complaints and demands regarding the new DLC:

① Although this is a Yue Fei-themed DLC, only the Jin Dynasty — Yue Fei’s enemy — has been added. While the Jin are necessary, players also want, and more importantly need: a standalone Yue Family Army faction, or a reworked Chinese / Zhu Xi civilization that better reflects the characteristics of the Song and Ming dynasties.

② Despite representing the Jin Dynasty, it appropriates a large number of technologies that rightfully belong to the Chinese / Zhu Xi civilization.We understand that new civilizations in a new DLC require new units to maintain product value, but this does not mean all new content should be crudely assigned to the new civilization.For anyone familiar with Chinese history, this is as absurd and illogical as France having longbowmen while England does not, or the Ottomans having two-handed swordsmen while the Holy Roman Empire does not.This not only disrespects history but also severely damages immersion in this historical game.Once again, this problem could easily be solved by adding a standalone Yue Family Army faction: the Jin Dynasty could focus on cavalry, while the Yue Family Army focuses on infantry.

③ Although it is likely a base civilization, the Jin Dynasty has no unique unit models whatsoever (other than campaign heroes only visible in single-player).A “Maybe Base Civilization” of this standard clearly lacks sincerity.Compared with the quality of new units for the Sengoku Daimyo in the previous DLC, we can clearly feel double standards and unequal treatment.

The above views and information are collected from Baidu Tieba, the largest and most active Age of Empires community in the world. I believe this represents a considerable portion of player opinion.We do not want to see this handled poorly. We want the new DLC to sell well, and we want the Age of Empires series to continue to thrive — but only if it delivers content of genuine quality and good value.

8 Likes
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You have basically said what I wanna say, I agree that.

IMO this new civ is basically served for this campaign as playing a villain role. If these campaign and this improvised civ are the only new things, the contents of this DLC doesn’t worth that much.

And if there’s no a significant changes for Chinese/ZXL, I wouldn’t be surprise. I just hope theres some hidden news to keep me being optimistic, but I’m kinda sad about this.

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Well it’s a campaign for the China we already have, which plenty of people have requested.

You think they should add yet another variant of China just because Yue Fei is featured in the campaign?

Actually they never called it that. They never said it is a variant, but they also never said it ISN’T. The only time they have used the term “base civilization" so far is referencing the coming Vikings and another civ later this year.

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It’s a bit apples and oranges, but this campaign looks close to what Sultan’s Ascend was accomplishing. They introduced a new faction associated with the new campaign, but the player controlled faction was closer to Abbasid than Ayyubid throughout.

Except this time we don’t get 5 bonus factions along with the campaign related one.

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I don’t think it’s a variant.

As far as I know, there are only two types of civilizations: variants or non-variants. And well, on their main page, they say that the Jin will have “unique masteries” and unique music, something previously reserved for base civilizations.

Besides that, there are the product mentions: In the last three DLCs, the variant civilizations were announced as what they were, without hiding it. But in this latest DLC, no, there’s no mention whatsoever of it being a variant.

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On the definition of a variant

Well, since Templars and its DLC, variants are no longer a reimagining of another civilization with 90% of the same bonuses or characteristics, but can be mostly original. That says the note of "Age-ing Up Variant Civilizations:

Now, at least for historical accuracy (the most common demand), they must have been part of another civilization: representing a time period, being a dynasty or organization within it, or deriving from it.

And should it be or not?

Well, having explained the above, I would prefer that the Jin Dynasty remain the base civilization, and not a variant. The main reason:

  • The Jin Dynasty is not derived from the game’s Chinese Civilization: They are Jurchen invaders, barbarians from northern Manchuria, who invaded the Liao Dynasty, seized their territory, and founded their own kingdom. They are not a continuation of any dynasty from Southern China, and at least as Unicon China is represented in the game with its four dynasties (Tang, Song, Yuan, and Ming), they cannot be. It’s a matter of “start → end.”

The secondary reason: I don’t see that Jin Dynasty share any bonus with the base Chinese Civ:

  • They lack imperial officials, so there’s no tax mechanic.
  • They lack unique Chinese buildings, so there’s no Granary, Pagoda, or Fortified Village.
  • They lack a construction bonus, so there’s no mass construction.
  • They lack a double landmark bonus, so there’s no Dynasty system or passive bonuses.
  • They didn´t even share any unique technology with China. Check the Jin Dynasty Tech tree

And regarding architecture, let’s be honest:

  • The Jin were nomads, but they became Sinicized (eastern concept analogous to the Roman concept of “Civilized”), and therefore, upon obtaining a kingdom with vassals, they began to employ Chinese architecture. So it’s normal that their buildings resemble those of mainland China, if theoretically they derive from it. Unless we want to invent a false architecture, I prefer that their architecture derives from Chinese. It makes “historical sense,” at least for now.

And the shared or “special” units?

The trailer showed that the Jin will share some units with China, including the Bee Nest, or even a “Traction Trebuchet” from the Mongols.

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This is the main argument for the idea that this was a variant civilization, but in this case, would it also be a “Mongolian” variant?

However, this mechanic isn’t actually new. Until now, the only Shared Units, or “Special Siege” units, have been Siege units:

  • 1).- Culverin - Replaces the Bombard (IV) in some civilizations, especially those that improved their siege capabilities in the Early Modern period. Originally a super-anti-siege unit, it’s now a Bombard with greater range.

  • 2).- Ribauldoquin - An Imperial (IV) short-range anti-melee siege unit. With significant HP, it has low ranged resistance, making its only weakness concentrated ranged damage.

Apparently, the new change is that this will now also include some siege units, previously considered unique, including:

  • 3).- Bee Nest - for China, Zhuxi, and the Jin Dynasty.

  • 4).- Traction Treb - for the Jin Dynasty, Mongols… and others? (I would add: Japan, Sengoku, China, ZhuXi, Vikings, Macedonian Dynasty)

This is theoretically good:

Now we can no longer limit some units to only certain civilizations, and we can share them without them being variants. This includes, in the future, some units and future civilizations:

  • War Elephant (Indian civilizations such as: Rajputs, Vijayanagara, Chola)

  • Tower Elephant (Indian civilizations such as: Rajputs, Vijayanagara, Chola)

  • Sultan Tower - Practically a Siege Tower with a Ram. While they fell out of favor in the Early Modern Age, analogous to the Imperial Age in the game, many civilizations don’t reach that age, such as Templars, Macedonian Dynasty, and Ayyubid. They could very well have this unit as a replacement in terms of power.

  • Javelin Throwers.- (Yorubaland/Benin, Congo Kingdom)

  • Atlat Dart Thrower.- (Mesoamerica and Soutamerican civs)

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I don’t know if it will fall under China in the civ selection menu or not.

It definitely blurs the line more with masteries and music added. They could also just not want to use the word “variant" going forward.

I’m just saying they have not clearly said one way or the other so far, and they did not use the term “base" like OP says they did.

Personally I couldn’t care less how they classify it or don’t.

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I don’t think they’ll discard the term Variant.

It’s already too well-known, and some people even like it. They’ve even created variant concepts on the forum; it’s a term that’s here to stay.

On the other hand, the reception will be worse if they release it as a variant, after giving too many hints that it isn’t.

Regarding “base civs,” it’s a recent term they invented to promote the year-end DLC:

  • Until recently, there were only “Civs,” variant civs, and parent civs (those from whose variants derive).
  • They introduced “base civ” to announce that the Vikings wouldn’t be a variant civ, along with the other unknown one, because we’ve already had three DLCs with variants, so that was the “joke” of calling it that.

That said, well, the same that i said before: The reception will be worse if they release it as a variant, after giving too many hints that it isn’t.

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This is just a suggestion post. As developers, they certainly have the freedom to plan their own products independently. I’m only pointing out that if they were to release a proper Chinese civilization faction, this DLC would absolutely sell far better than the current approach.

I’ll admit my wording was imprecise. The developers haven’t explicitly advertised the Jin Dynasty as a Base Civilization. However, judging from the current promotional tone—including the brand-new challenge missions and music centered on the Jin Dynasty—it’s highly likely that it is intended as a Base Civilization. Then again, it’s also possible that starting from this version, civilizations will no longer be categorized into Base and variant types (theoretically, this could reduce controversy over scaled-back DLC content).

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It can only be said that these game developers are fans of Japanese anime or animation, and they are particularly attentive to Japanese game design. They may not be aware that Chinese people dislike Japanese people very much. The Jin Dynasty is actually a variant of Chinese civilization, but it is rigidly designed as an independent new civilization.

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This DLC is eager to make money from Chinese players, but it refuses to be produced seriously with the fanaticism akin to designing Japanese civilization. Perhaps the game developer believes that fans of Japanese civilization are spread all over the world (excluding Chinese people, who dislike Japanese people) and thus can generate more revenue. Chinese players take historical restoration very seriously and cannot be easily fooled.

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I agree with everything you say…

Why we are only getting the villains / protagonists and not our actual campaign army as a new civ is abit baffling.

I’m new and not sure what the yue fei army is in terms of history but surely basing a campaign on them should mean we get that civ/army in the multiplayer section rather than just Jin.

The price is also abit steep considering the amount of content we get

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Yes, for me it’s a “semi/mix-Chinese/Mongolian variant… or if you prefer, like the Jurchens from AoE 2 that have UUs but then reuse Chinese architecture and voices…”

Good point…then it could be a completely new civilization, although I’ll wait until they’re released to compare them to the Chinese/Zhu Xi and the Mongols/Golden Horde to corroborate it…

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IMHO a separate faction for the army isn’t necessary but a rework of Chinese and Zhu Xi would be welcome. I like your idea of letting go of the existing dynasty change system and renaming them into Ming and Song. All the three (Song, Ming, Jin) would need their unit composition adjusted to better match historicity.

Unlike other “northern barbarians” of Chinese history, Jurchens were a sedentary population. Giving them yurts and stuff would be less accurate than Chinese architecture.

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I fully agree with the original poster. My suggestion is to make proper adjustments to the existing Chinese civilization and its related Chinese variants (such as Zhu Xi’s Legacy). In particular, the unique units of the current Chinese civilization have become a joke—most players just rely on spamming generic units with no special traits. In reality, China had many distinctive special forces and weapons across different dynasties. For example:

  • Tang Dynasty: Modao Regiment (heavy infantry capable of cutting down horses and armor), Xuanjia Cavalry (elite heavy cavalry), Shence Army (imperial guards).

  • Song Dynasty: Shenbi Crossbow (powerful crossbow), Chuangzi Crossbow (large siege crossbow), Beiwei Army (Yue Fei’s elite cavalry/infantry).

  • Yuan Dynasty: Kheshig (Mongol Khan’s elite bodyguards), Huihui Trebuchet (heavy counterweight trebuchet), Tammachi (vanguard scout forces).

  • Ming Dynasty: Shenjiying (firearm corps equipped with three-barreled hand cannons and early muskets), Embroidered Uniform Guard (Jinyiwei – intelligence and special operations), Guanning Iron Cavalry (heavy cavalry with firearms).

This DLC is designed specifically for Chinese players. If the dev team would truly listen to Chinese players’ feedback, it would surely sell well. However, as it stands, Yue Fei appears only as campaign content with no visible unique units or mechanics for his army. And on top of that, the new civilization is actually Yue Fei’s enemy, the Jin Dynasty. No matter how you look at it, this DLC is not very exciting.

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Yes, ultimately they would have to double the number of UUs for the Chinese:

Tang Dynasty: 2 more UUs (besides the Imperial Officer)

Song Dynasty: 2 more UUs (besides the Zhuge Nu)

Yuan Dynasty: None, or at least 2 UUs from the Mongols (choose whichever ones you want)

Ming Dynasty: 2 more UUs (besides the Grenadier)

And so the Chinese would have about 12-14 UUs, similar to the Japanese…

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I think that’s the real reason. I know a lot of people in Europe and the Americas who love Japan and are fans of the Japanese faction in both AoE4 and AoE2, but many of them aren’t really interested in China. So, on a global scale, I think it’s normal for the average person to be more inclined to buy the Japanese DLC rather than the Chinese one. I think the Chinese DLC is aimed primarily at Chinese players, so the developers are clearly targeting a smaller market.