the whole point of eagles as an infantry replacement for cav is that they DON’T take much bonus from the spearman line.
It makes absoultely no sense to give spears similar bonus to trash eagles again.
4 Likes
I would say their whole point is anti-archer, monks, siege, and raiding. Whether they are countered by pike or militia is not that important
so you basically just want to make it a reskin of the light cav line…
Why not just giving the civs light cav in the lategame and keep eagles their special place they have currently?
5 Likes
The point of militia is to hard counter eagles.
Currently the counter is (more or less):
Gold units > Champions > Trash
Champions cost significantly less Gold then any other generic unit.
The lowest other Gold cost are the Steppe Lancers for 40 Gold, which is 2x as much as Champions.
Therefor I think Champions should not have a generic Trash counter because they are supposed to counter all trash units.
Champions also do decent damage vs. buildings which makes them even more valuable in trash fights.
Currently it’s often the better choice to save up some more Gold to get some Siege units though. An Onager can be pretty devastating against most trash units.
There is still some potential for Unique or Regional Trash units but I don’t see a need for a new trash unit that is available to all or almost all civs.
5 Likes
i come more and more to the conclusion that a unit designed around countering trash is a really bad idea. It constructs an additional requirement on the whole game design (the gold units must be evalueated on the vlaue potential they get for the gold invested and balanced - indepedent on the opponent strategy).
Cause othrwise it feels to volatile matchups where one civ is basically on a timer because it can’t compete with the other in the lategame - as the other saves the gold much better and could go for a late champ switch that kills all the opponent trash.
I think it would be much better if there wasn’t such a designated “trash counter” unit.
You see, when there is one it’s best when it basically never comes into play in the lategame. And whilst it could be interesting in the early and midgame to force opponents out of trash - it would require that unit to scale terribly in the lategame to not become that oppressive and disbalanced threat.
And I think there is even a possibly better role for the militia line. It could become a Halb/Siege Counter instead. We’re missing one and it would absolutely fit in. It’s just that atm militia still die to Siege way to easily and can’t really perform that task effectively therefore (ask britons).
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Why not both? Currently they dont even really counter hussar well. I think adding elite Genitour as generic trash can be potentially good against champion. (Standard Genitour may be not good vs champion.)
As I said I see no benefit designwise in a lategame trash counter.
It just puts an additional balance burden on the devs and the best thing that can happen is that it comes almost never into play (which is currently weirdly the case, though the main cause for that is that most games don’t reach a state where it can be decisive).
So a lot of work and restrictions added for no benefit as it would be bad if it actually came into play.
But I’m all open for ideas that bring the militia to the state of a usable/preferable halb/siege counter.
At least hussar raids is common in imp so champion can serve a role.
I actually find this type of match up good for the game. With 990 match-ups we should not try making all civs have similar power in the Imperial.
What I refer to is when there is eg a matchup between a Knight and an Archer civ - and a game betweeen 2 players which play at the same level.
If then one of them has “naturally” much more gold left than the other so the other can make a champ transition this would be very bad for the game, as it would punish according to the civ specification with no reason.
Ofc there will always be differnt stages where certain civs excel or not, but atm it would be very unfair to play without gold against champs in the lategame when the entire game before was even.
I think that it is more unfair to play without gold against hussar. Hussar dominate late imp while champ cant even probably counter them.
I agree that Hussar might be a bit overtuned. I said that already in different threads.
But at least Halbs exist to theoretically stop them.
That’s the issue with cav. They outrun their counters in most scenarios.
I think we can add standard Genitour as new trash while leaving elite one to Berbers. Maybe it is a soft trash counter to champs.
Make the petard a trash unit. 
Make scorpion line a trash unit that ̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶e̶r̶s̶ pairs well with Militia line.
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Militia line could be made trash, taking militia and MAA and add a new Castle and imp upgrade.
Longswords and THS and champion could then start from Castle and actually be buffed to be decent
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Stratiotai: a Venetian mercenary light cavalry unit that has bonus against gunpowder units.
Cossack: Imperial Age upgrade from the Hussar. Or a replacement of the Hussar for the Slavs.
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Maceman good against heavier units but vulnerable to archers/skirmishers.
1 Like