A professional should not take so long to win a non-professional

Which shows how easy it is to take a defensive stance to an offense and how comfortable it can be to boom villagers and farms. I know that most of them are players, from the ladder, they are casual, I ask for a little condescension as well

Sun Tzu


Maybe if the Landmarks are repaired with wood and stone that will encourage to play more offensively



is it standup? cause it’s so funny.

how dare top50 noobs win against above average ex-sc2 player and ex-streamer.
How dare they to loose for that long.

may be it’s the issue…may be not… but surely not because 3 random game.

I fixed, find the winner.


The abba mirror lasting 1 hour doesn’t really surprise me.

Yeah, I think hyper booming tactics should lose to rushes, but it doesn’t feel like rush is winning at all. Fights are way too close and rusher will lose the game if the rush fails

1 Like

You do realise Numudan is an extremely high level “casual” player with tournament grand final wins and losses in indie RTS, right?

This worship of the starcraft 2 and aoe2 converts to aoe4 that literally play fulltime but are as dumb as a bag of rocks needs to stop.

The most talented part time and casual top tier players in the game all hail from and identify as aoeo or aom players or are playing seriously in an rts for the first time btw

Granted, I will agree a meta of walling and clicking age 4 needs to stop. The “Feudal all-in vs semi fast castle and timing push before either player worries about working toward age 4” meta was objectively the highest skillcap meta the game has had.







even viper lost to some 1700 (in aoe2).

difference ~1000 positions, not 40 positions difference.

tips was top50 at his best. **excluding smurths.

or do you really think that top50 should not be able to win against top10? (rhetorical)


This is not a diss or me thinking I’m better than top ranking players.
By far.

However, I do gotta say, and we see especially this in Aussie Drongo’s Outback Octagon tournament.

is that many of these very high ranking players seems to fall short in Strategic thinking at times.
And it always amuses me when I see them doing “noob” mistakes.

Ofcourse there are many factors that can lead to even the top players doing simple mistakes, such as distractions, mental pressure, or even someting as simple as brain farts (Just simply didn’t think of that option).

Example such as Anotand completely forgetting that Springald existed when pressuring State’s base in outback octagon, getting wiped to the floor by mangonels.
Or when Mitoe didn’t realise he could so easily obtain a Landmark victory over BeastyQT and let a golden oppertunity to KO beasty slip right between his fingers in a regular 1v1 game. He had the siege, he had the numbers, and both landmarks were just right next to each other.

the Nomad FFA game seems to throw many of these top players out of the loop, and this type of game mode really emphasizes on Strategy and how to play.

1: Do I settle fast, or should I scout a bit extra?
2: If I attack opponent A, will Opponent B start pressuring me?
3: Should I drop my original base and migrate?
4: Which Opponent poses the highest threat, and how can I obtain the most amount of points?
5: If I secure this point, will it really be worth it?
6: How do I play this politically? (how to pitch opponents against each other and to give yourself as much advantages as possible).

Ofcourse, it is way easier for us spectators to see and evaluate due to full map vision.

But there are such thing as Intuition and even more importance on keeping the scouting game at peak.
More information you have, the better judgement you can make to come out at the top.
And ofcourse, the daily condition of your mental state has a lot to say.
You can have the most genius strategist in the world do dumb decisions stuff simply due to fatigue or just not feeling at top shape that day.

but a #### the top players we do see quite a lot of difference in play-style, which also bases itself a lot of how well they are at strategising.

Some are extremely good at Micro and Macro, but lack the ability to think outside the box.
And then you have the opposites, and those in between.

Example we can see is 3!DBee is typical a person who likes thinking outside the box and figure out new Meta.
While BeastyQT is more of a allrounder playing it safe with solid build orders, but will surprise you if he gets himself cornered, but at the same time also quite quick to give up if he can’t think or find a way out of a serious problem.

But that what makes them fun to watch.


if it is still about Octogon2 → they removed landmark win from win condition, so people could run around with king.

Ah the battle i was refering to, did mention it, was a regular 1v1 between mitoe and beastyQT. Not in outback octagon.





Being perfectly honest I disagree with the statement “A professional should not take so long to win a non-professional”. Why? I think long games can be exciting.

I also find your selective examples to be some of the worst confirmation bias I’ve ever seen. You’re choosing “non-professionals” like numudan, and comparing to “professionals” like Wam. First of all, Wam isn’t professional. Second, numudan is an exceptional player. You’ve also only provided a tiny sample of games. That suggests to me the vast majority of games aren’t so long. You really aren’t doing a good job of proving whatever point you’re trying to make.

That said, I agree with what you say in the first post, which I think is the point you’re going for - this game rewards booming far too much. Aggression rarely pays off. Whenever we’ve seen aggressive strats become meta (e.g. Rus boar play into mass archers) it gets nerfed. The only style of rushing that’s had any longevity is the tower rush, which is the saddest thing I’ve ever seen. I hope more can be done to encourage early aggression.


A major issue to me is that it is very easy for the defending player to drag the game out, even if he is so inferior that there’s no chance for him to ever win the game. Place a TC, multiple towers, defensive landmark or castle at a crucial spot and just garrison villagers inside everytime your opponents about to attack. Will most likely not win you the game but adds 5-10 minutes to the timer in an instant without any skill involved.

I have asked lucifron on twitch the other day what he thinks about keeps, TCs and defensive structures in general and he said that if it was up to him he would nerf them beause they are too powerful.

1 Like

Yeah it’s a tough balance to strike. At least AoE4 has victory conditions to speed up the endings. I don’t begrudge someone for sticking in it while there’s still a small chance of recovery; that’s their right. A good enough player will just get siege and take out the landmarks.

If you’ve ever played any of the other age games you’ll have experienced people hiding villagers all over the map, sticking in the game to the very last because killing them all is the only way to win the game. So frustrating!

Historically speaking, Age games take 20-30 minutes on average. If you want something quicker, maybe another game is more to your taste (e.g. SC2), or else a different game mode like deathmatch can help to speed things up.

1 Like

Neither AoE2 nor AoE3 have games of 30 minutes on average (in AoE2 it is usually 25 minutes at medium/low levels and 21-23 minutes at higher levels).

There are maps in AoE4 (especially those that don’t favor map control and have sacred sites near each player’s base, like the one Puppypaw played) that, even though they seem open, slow down games a lot.

You have to favor more action, map control and add micromanagement if possible, because in this game there is room for it.


Hot take: Move the TC from Age 2 to Age 3 like it’s the case for the other AoE games, so booming will be less efficient and rewarding early on.


likely cause of this issue, or rather, make it harder to get up till age 3, leave it available in age 2, but make it take longer or smt to build, although this simply makes it a more extreme solution to whats currently already there (there’s a reason the town center like landmarks don’t appear till age 3 ageup)