A small essay: I'm starting to dislike the disparity of regional asymmetry between civilizations (I mean, some regions are too standard compared to others)

Greetings. Here, a small essay:

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INTRODUCTION

I’ll begin by saying that, when it comes to AoE2, I’ve always valued consistency in the game design. What do I mean by that? I’m not directly opposed to changing or adding things to the game, as long as those things become part of a new standard and feel cohesive within the set of rules the game follows.

This is especially important in this game, where most of the game’s logic is an abstraction of its historical setting. For example, 1 villager building a house by only hammering the ground or resources in your stockpile being directly transformed into a newly born unit; these aren’t incoherences, they’re consistent within the game logic of abstractions.

The same happens with tech trees. Some civilizations lack (or have access to) technologies or unit upgrades either as a balance decision (e.g. Spanish without Crossbow) or as an abstraction of a historical reality (e.g. Chinese Arbalesters, which do not literally represent French Arbalesters but rather proficiency in archery). Malian Arbalesters, Mongol Knights, Cuman Castles, Aztec Monasteries, everything is an abstraction.
But those abstractions are purposefully broken to make the different civs play out differently: bonuses and tech trees, and that’s what makes civilizations play different from each other.

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A HISTORICAL RECAP

Originally, in AoK, the first version of the game that came out, with its set of civs, units, and rules, established that, when it comes to designing civilizations, those deviations from the abstraction of the game I mentioned were, with a few exceptions, a single unique unit, slight differences in tech trees, and stat differences as bonuses. An inner logic for civilization design was set, and it was overall consistent. From now on, I will refer to this consistency simply as “the consistency.”

Then The Conquerors came, and, as was common for the mindset of game developers at that time, things needed to be as flashy and cool as possible to attract customers. It didn’t matter if things went a bit crazy, a new iteration of the game would come out in a few years and everyone would leave the old AoE2 behind to play the new AoE3. With The Conquerors came the Huns, and it was decided that they would deviate from the standard design rules with a marked asymmetrical bonus, that is, not needing to build houses. But most importantly, we got the American civs, and they are, even to this day, perhaps the civs that deviate the most from the standard design .
The american civs were quite unique, but I guess it was fine; they were indeed very different from the existing civs in historical reality, especially in terms of military. The consistency was somehow broken, but at the same time, it could be understood as a redefinition: now the tech tree would be overall the same for every civ (missing one or another upgrade) as long as what’s being added is based in a marked historical reality. It woudl be insulting to give american civilizations mounted units.

And the Huns? They were nomads, so their element of asymmetry is also an abstraction of them living in yurts, right? Well, Mongols were as much nomads as Huns, but they do need houses, so it’s not a element of asymmetry based on historical reality (if it were, it should be applied globally when appropriate). It’s just an arbitrary breaking of the consistency, and we would need to deal with it. I guess it’s fine, it’s just a game, some exceptions are tolerated as long as it’s fun.

The Forgotten was mostly fine. The original Indians were a historical mess, and one might say the lack of knights is an arbitrary breaking of the consistency, but, whether the devs were aware or not, it could be understood as a historical reference to the poor tradition of horse breeding in India (something only present there and (albeit to a lesser degree) in Southeast Asia), and their preference for light cavalry, especially in the northwest. Imperial camels were a historical miss, but they were within the inner logic of the game, just an upgrade.

African Kingdoms was fine in this aspect, and Rise of the Rajas too, aside from one single thing: Battle Elephants. But, just like the american civs, it was based on a historical reality. You cannot pretend to represent elephants with any other mounted unit that is not an elephant. It’s just too much of an abstraction to be convincing… but now Indians, who were the quintessential “users” of elephants in war, lacked this unit. The justification for the inclusion of this new unit, that is, the representation of the use of battle elephants in real life, was broken as soon as it was included, because by excepting the Indians, it didn’t appropriately follow its own inner logic.

To this point, the consistency between civilization (a)symmetrical design was overall preserved: a shared tech tree, except for the Americans, who do not have horses, and elephants for those civs who used elephants in war (one could consider camels within this logic of regional units).
But then DE arrived, and along with it The Last Khans, and everything broke forever. The Steppe Lancer was the first time a non-unique unit was added without a convincing historical argument. “But… steppe lancers are historically accurate! Steppe warriors fought with lances mounted on horses!” Yes, just like every culture in the world at that time… yeah, that’s not a proper argument. The Steppe Lancer inclusion was an arbitrary deviation from the standard tech tree design just for the sake of variety and as a marketing move to make the new civs more appealing, and from now on, the same would happen again and again.

Since DE came out, the consistency broke more and more with each DLC. Burgundians introduced the first “early access” to a unique upgrade, Sicilians brought the first building replacement (donjons), Poles introduced the first upgrade replacement (the winged hussar), the folwark mechanic was something the game had never seen before (“within x tiles” effect), Romans introduced the aura mechanic, and Indian civs generalized the unique civ aspect of lacking knights to a whole game region, with Gurjaras in particular presenting a big design asymmetry compared to the game’s standard. Then came the Mountain Royals civs, with, again, another instance of a marked deviation from the standard design rules without a proper historical justification, with two unique building replacements (fortified monasteries and mule carts).
A new standard for future civilizations is now set.

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NOW, TO THE POINT

You may think I’m saying: “Old good, new bad,” “This does not feel like AoE2,” “Stop adding mechanics.” But no, not at all. Well, perhaps we should stop with new mechanics, but that’s not the point. I’m not saying that. I’m fine with the way new civs are designed, and I’m fine with this level of asymmetry between civs. I actually enjoy playing Gurjaras and Armenians, two of the most asymmetrical civs in the game.

What I do not like is the way the consistency was broken. Are we adding new civs with new (or missing) units, buildings, and mechanics? Fine, but let’s do it for all civs, even the already existing ones. Let’s define a new inner logic for the game and be consistent with it.
They are somehow advancing in the mechanics and upgrades aspect through changes to old civs like Saracens’ Madrasa, the Savar, and Celts’ Stronghold, but it’s happening too slowly compared to the rate at which new civs are being added.

I’m especially concerned with the direction the game is taking with the apparently new “historical regions” style. You want to make India feel different from the rest of the world? The Caucasus feel different from the rest of the world? America? Fine, I’m on board. But do it for all regions. Europe should feel as different from China as the Caucasus and India. Africa (even when the two african civs are worlds apart) should definitely have a distinct feature.
Damn, it doesn’t make sense that a region like the Caucasus, which is sometimes even considered part of Europe today, feels more different than Europe compared to f**king Japan. This is what I mean when I say the consistency is broken. Everything seems arbitrary and sales-oriented. “New is different. Old is all the same. And it’s fine because new is new and old is old.”

Just as civilizations in old campaigns are updated to include the new, more appropriate civs, civilization designs should be consistent across the board, not just with new additions.

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SOME IDEAS IN THIS REGARD

I want to illustrate what I mean with some ideas. Broad ideas, not real proposals. Don’t take them literally and keep only the intention.

Ideas:

  • Redesign Mamluks and Ghulams to be a replacement for knights and cavaliers for civs that made extensive use of these units (Saracens, Turks, Persians, Tatars, Hindustanis). They would cost more gold or something like that, to represent their mercenary nature. Current UUs would be replaced with something else.
  • Fire Lancers as a pre-evolution of Hand Cannoneers for East Asian civs (Mongols, Chinese, Koreans, and hypothetical Chinese DLC civs) (not my own idea).
  • Cavalry archers made a regional unit for the steppe civs and civs with connections to them (that includes most of the Middle East and Eastern Europe).
  • Emphasize the prevalence of Battle Elephants in SEA civs by buffing them and removing access to cavalier for those civs (this would be historically accurate).
  • Something for Europe? IDK, the game is already so inspired by Western Europe that it’s difficult to come up with something unique for them. Any idea? Paladins for everyone is the only thing that comes to mind, but it’s unlikely.

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CONCLUSION

“The game needs to be kept fresh”, paraphrasing, is a phrase I read quite often. I agree, we need ways to attract new players, keep the game financed, and we, old players, need new ways to experience the game. But in order to keep this game as the piece of art it still is, consistency must be preserved, otherwise, the game is being treated like a commercial product that needs to keep customers engaged by throwing new stuff all around. And it must not be so. Every move the devs make to change the game must be done within a framework of establishing a new paradigm, as if it were to eventually become the definitive version of the game.

Let’s keep consistency preserved and improved upon.

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13 Likes

I agree with the general statement. I’d propose to add steppe lancers to Huns and probably a bonus for them (removing paladins if necessary for balance but since cumans have them it’s still somewhat consistent).

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Generally agree. We can quibble around the edges but I’ve noticed this too and it’s bothered me.

Why can ratha switch between melee and ranged but samurai can’t?

Why do the meso civs have unique monk skins but no one else does?

Why don’t Huns get steppe lancer? Btw I think Turks and Magyars should also get the steppe and Bulgarians should get elite. It’s give them a unique THS + SL comp that I think could work well for them.

Why do lots of civs get the hussar when we now have polish-Lithuanian winged hussar. Seems like we could remove the wings from regular hussar and name it something else.

EDIT - I’d like to clarify my objection to the regular hussar name and design isn’t historical accuracy. I’m fine with the logic that mongols have top notch light cavalry, and in game that’s called hussar. My issue is we have both hussar, with wings which are modeled after the polish-lithuanian winged hussar, AND we have winged hussar which the poles and lithuanians get which also have wings (not to mention magyar hussar). Hussar feels clunky now that winged hussar are in the game.

Why are Byzantines too ancient to get cannon galleons but Vikings are modern enough to get elite cannon galleons?

Ideally the game should feel as tho it was designed yesterday from scratch to have 45 civs with these mechanics, regional units, etc.

And while I don’t think the game will ever feel quite that consistent there are some glaring examples of inconsistency, and some easily addressable.

Idk, maybe we’ll see some of these changes soon. DLC 5 looks like it might be a big one, and with four months and counting since the last balance update, maybe something a little bigger is in the works on that front too.

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Your points seem very good to me, the problem is that there are still many historical inconsistencies scattered throughout the game, an example of this is the Vikings who use the wrong building model since they should use a Scandinavian model in particular, the Cumans were Eurasians coming from part of Russia which is why the model of buildings is also very poorly represented, in fact the Cumans, the Huns and the Mongols should use a new model of Asian nomadic style buildings different from those used by the Chinese and Japanese, the Goths should also use another type of architectural model more similar to the Roman one since they were allies of Rome for a long time and shared part of its culture and politics. If at some point they were to divide the Slavic civilization as they did with India, these new factions would have to share a new Balkan-type architectural model together with the Armenian and Georgian civilizations since the latter two feel very out of place with the Mediterranean model, finally it is worth highlighting that even so many factions feel without much historical sense since they share too many units and This causes the historical coherence to be lost from playing with Asians to playing with Europeans or playing with Aztecs and playing with Indians, everyone uses the same european units even knowing that it is anachronistically wrong because it is not possible for the Aztecs to have access to crossbowmen or to the broadsword swordsman when that does not make the slightest sense, that is why I continue to emphasize that in the future we must address the reworking of civilizations that are poorly represented architecturally and add regional units to avoid historical inconsistencies

Viking
Viking

Nomads

Goths
Goths

Balcans

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Same here. I’m very open to nee mechanics but I don’t like it when some very general and universal mechanics are forced into “unique”:

  1. Cavalry charge should be a universal thing
  2. Lancer type units should be a standard unit type that most civs have access to, not the opposite. It could also be how the knight line should be reworked.
  3. “Nomadic” features like no need for houses should be available to all nomadic civs.
  4. All civs should have a unique castle model.
  5. And more

I know these may take a long time, but they are worth doing. It’s inevitable that they want to sell all new stuff while free general updates took longer.

AOE3 once added many European native units, many of which are French and German, but they were only made accessible to the new European civs (but not French and German). That’s really not good. They made a universal update later to standardize that. I think this way of updates should be followed.

The steppe lancer argument is a valid one. Eagle warriors and battle elephants can justify as regional UUs because they represent something very unique to that region (which may lack some other basic units) and you cannot abstract them with cavalry. But steppe lancer (also the coustilier) is basically how all cavalry should work if the engine permits. The reason why the previous knights do not have such mechanisms is because they were made earlier, not because generic knight really did not use lances or could not charge while only the UUs did. Either all cavalry can charge, or all cavalry cannot charge (“abstraction”). It is a mechanism that either should be given to most civs universally, or NOT introduced to the game as a unique feature of one unit or one civ group.

If they were to introduce anything new, they should re-think the basic design logic and find a consistent approach to integrate the new stuff, not brainlessly stuffing all of them into the new civs exclusively.

6 Likes

This is I what I tried to transmit but wasn’t able to put it in words like these. I don’t demand the game achieves this “ideal version” in the next patch, it could be done in slow progress, step by step. But not even this ideal concept seems to be defined by the devs.

Excelent example. I forgot about this. What does the dromon represent to be added to goths and byzantines? Does it mean mediterranenan? Does it mean Dark Age? Why do Armenians get it??

This is something I’m still mad. I’m don’t dislike unique upgrades, but when they are there, they transmit something like “X civ do not have this regular update and instead has this other unique upgrade because it’s a reference to Y historical reality”, like legionaries implying Romans do not get the last 2 militia upgrades because they dissapeared early.
But what do Winged Hussar represent? “Poles didn’t have Hussars, no, they had Winged Hussar instead”. When hussars are already based on Winged Hussars. It’s a conceptual mess.

Wow, I tried to wrap a solution many times and never came with something so simple and effective as this.

Ehm. Not trying to be disrespectful, but this doesn’t quite relate to the topic. Historical inaccuracies can comfortably exist withing the internal logic of the game.

As I see it, the game set a logic of “Unique Units are allowed to have special powers and Unique Technologies provide special powers to regular units”. So, only Coustiller being able to charge feels consistent to me, in the frame of this logic.

Another great way to put it simply.

As a Milei supporter, please stay on the topic and avoid spam.

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Garg has mental issues from using illegal substances.Just ignore him.

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I agree with both of you, but do not engage the Gargarensis.

And Turks. They have access to them in so many scenarios (at least TWO) it’s becoming too awkward.

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I honestly think most European civs should feel standard since the game was designed mostly around them. I also think we shouldn’t start changing civs on a specific basis just for the sake of it (most recent changes were done because the old techs/units were doing basically nothing useful), and a better course of action would be introducing elements unique to the other regions.

I think these are too fundamental to change at this point.

Could work but then the Huns should have something else to make them unique again (also the mongol CAUT, obviously).

Purely æsþetic so I agree. It even fits thematically since it’s where you have access to (most of) your civ-unique stuff.

I agree. Just remove the wings of the other hussars.

I’m still not sold on this. Is there a civ in the game that was truly completely nomadic? Closest I can think of is the Cumans. Even the Huns had a settled empire.

Baltic set for Vikings and Lithuanians?

Probably because Vikings represent the Norse in general.

They should also have a sort of anti-personnel grapeshot siege weapon to represent early cannons. Also Mongols should have hand cannoneers due to historical accuracy (not serious).

Oh yeah Turks too.
You could argue for Magyars and Bulgarians to get the first one to represent their early nomadic stage as someone said.
Maybe Persians and Hindustanis?
Chinese, Romans, byzantines and others used them as mercenaries but it depends if mercenaries are to be considered part of a civ army composition or not.

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I don’t entirely agree. I’d rather say that Europe should be made to feel unique by giving regional units to everyone else. If only Euro civs have the Knight line, for instance, then suddenly the Knight line isn’t a standard unit anymore.

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I mean it should be something “average”, with well-rounded stats and no special boni or effects.

If you believe the wiki tho, only during the timeframe of the Viking Age, about 800-1050.

Now before the introduction of the dromon I was willing to believe that aoe2 civs could be thought of in some alt history way, where you could extrapolate forward, and naval civ like vikings surely then deserve elite cannon galleon in that context.

But the dromon really flies in the face of that. It implies that “early” civs shouldn’t get what “later civs” get.

Tho even that logic doesn’t work well with the goths. Somehow the goths are too ancient for cannon galleons, but hand cannoneers and bombard cannons are just fine.

So I wouldn’t be surprised if this was some last minute addition. Romans weren’t originally going to be an MP civ, and RoR from what I can tell took longer than it was supposed to, and it came with basically no content for aoe2. I think at some point it was decided to make romans MP to increase the value proposition of the DLC as well as make the Dromon not a unique unit. And because the dromon was being introduced in “Return of Rome” DLC, which civilizations are thematically appropriate to get a late antiquity alternative to the cannon galleon. Goths, Huns, Romans, and Byzantines.

Well now that the dromon has been introduced to these thematically (tho not logically) appropriate civs, and all these civs are Mediterranean civs, when you introduce armenians, based on the cilician armenians, that kingdom having fallen in 1375 (more than 75 years before constantinople fell), I guess you have to give dromons to armenians.

So to your point I guess dromons are for any civ that is both mediterranean AND deemed sufficiently ancient.

But as far as I can tell, the dromon/cannon galleon split is the only temporal split in the game. Every other instance of “does this civ get x unit or y unit” is based on region, excluding unique upgrades.

And I don’t necessarily have a problem with having a temporal differentiatian between what civs get what units, but pairing it with the mediterranean requirement makes no sense. I guess the time just worked differently in the mediterranean as opposed to the north sea.

I agree with the general sentiment and other examples that have been given.

I don’t think anyone will cry if the Cavalry Archer of the Spanish, Portuguese, Burgundians, Teutons, Italians, Sicilians and so on are removed. I am probably forgetting someone.

As a start, we can finally give the Crossbowmen to the Spanish, as the crossbow was widely used throughout Europe.

Yes.

If we start down this road, that we should first do something for the Celts.

2 Likes

Change the way, maybe.
Make all non-European civs have Heavy Cavalry and Elite Heavy Cavalry, who could be a bit cheaper (like -5 food and -5 gold) and a bit weaker (like -1 melee armor and -10 HP) than the Knight line, to replace their Knight line. Then the Knight, Cavalier and Paladins would be the regional units.

But it’s just a potential approach for this topic.

3 Likes

I agree, you make very good points.

We should stop creating more exceptions to the rule.

I can understand a few “special civs” like Burgundians with their “early access” unit, Sicilians donjons, Poles & Lithuanians Winged Hussar, Romans aura effect, Mountain Royals no default lumbercamp and mines.

But the key word is: a few.

We already have enough. The moment Age of Empires 2 becomes more these “exception civs” than the regular civs is the moment I will stop playing it.

There is nothing wrong with having a civ without “new breakthrough mechanics”. Age of Empires 2 of 2024 being the same Age of Empires 2 of 1999 is one of it’s main selling points. Don’t destroy that.

For you will destory a lot of the playerbase.

This may be controversial.

I think each Architecture Set should have its own Dark Age look! I guess I don’t have to tell you who the current Dark Age look would best suit.

The trick was that the Magyar and Bulgarians civs could have the current Dark Age look that would be reserved for Nomadic Architecture Set. After Age Up they would have the appropriate Architecture Set’s.

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Tbf they outlasted the Byzantines by a couple of years, but I don’t think there is any info on the theodoran military.

I personally like the way the japanese localization does it:

Knight → Heavy Knight → Imperial Knight

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