Does the last tier of the Abbasid Golden Age seem too high to anyone else? I only recently started playing around with them, but it almost seems unachievable to get 60 structures in the influence area during the normal pace of a game.
I ran a test to see just how much I would have to build to achieve the third tier. This was the results:
TC
Houses x19
Lumber Camp x12 (Three on each wood line)
Mill x3 (2 on berries, 1 on deer)
Mining Camp x4 (2 on gold, 2 on stone)
Military Production x16 (4 each of Barracks, Archery Range, Stables and Siege Workshop)
Blacksmith
Market
Mosque
Keep
Madrasa
With the fast pace and tendency towards aggressive play, I just cannot imagine building that much during the course of a regular game. In most of the games I’ve played, it’s finished before I clear two wood lines and I’ve never had to build sixteen military buildings to get the job done. I suppose building 20 outposts in and around your base could be feasible, but that kind of seems like overkill. I dunno, maybe someone that’s played with this civ more has some better insight, but doesn’t seem like getting to that third tier is really practical. On top of this, by the time you actually achieve Tier 3, you’d have so much infrastructure that your economy would be booming already, as well as having most all of the techs you’d need that the bonuses are largely inconsequential, at that point.
Here’s a screenshot of the map seed. Even here, in order to get to that third tier, I had to run house lines to several resources that were a good distance away from my starting location. It seems a little silly that you would have to play connect-the-dots with houses to reach that third-tier, but I don’t know if that was by design or what. To me, 45 seems to be a much more manageable number, which would require that you build all of the above, except only having six lumber camps (instead of 12) and 7 military production buildings (instead of 16).
That’s kind of my point though. Most of the games I’ve played don’t last long enough to ever really see the third tier. The majority of games I have are over by the late castle, early Imperial Age or close to it. The same applies to the streams I watch from Aussie_Drongo, TheViper, Hera, etc. Aside that, as mentioned above, I needed to put down a total of 16 military buildings to reach the third tier and not only have I never needed to drop that many to get the job done, I’ve never seen that many dropped in streams or from opponents I’ve played. The most I’ve seen is 8-10 and that’s only when the game goes a little longer than normal and economies are through the roof.
TL;DR - I know that it’s possible, but it doesn’t seem practical given the average time and pacing of games I’ve played and watched.
I play Abbs only what i find unfair i have only one building to be destroyed while others u have to destroy multi buildins to win, landmarks i mean…
i dunno but it is unfair a lil…
Good point, though. We are forced to make a really good fortifications and make use of any means necessary. Unless there is a more usefull buff or protections, it would still be vulnerable.
Perhaps additions like Great Mosque of Samarra, Palace of Ukhaidir, or any other notable places would be nice, indeed.
Getting the edge is what’s important. If you time your eco right you can get the first age with your second tc at 5min. (2 tc, 3 houses, barracks, mill, lumber, 2 mining camps) [house of wisdom dosnt count iirc)
Then you want to get the second age by 10mins. Think of it like a research. Instead of spending on tier 2 eco upgrades you can go wood heavy. Get a few defensive outposts, a few more barracks and archery ranges. Lumber camps will have to be emplaced faster too because you have more vills on wood. Then get eco upgrades.
Finally you can hit tier 3 at 15-18 mins by getting your full pop production of houses and more military buildings.you might need to spam 10 extra houses, but thats just 500w. I’d spend that any day for 5% villager collection, 5% research and 20% military production.
After, you get this bonus you can spend on more expensive upgrades that offer much less value, like imperial upgrade on eco wing or tier 3 eco upgrades.
A market is valuable too. Buy some wood if you went heavy on military during castle. Another tip would be to push for culture wing if you see you are playing an eco game (vs English or French). Less resources spent on upgrades, more wood for buildings.
I believe your building amounts are a bit off, but you are correct you need to build house lines to connect with deer, berries and some mining outposts.
Yeah. Timing and resources aren’t really my concern, so much as the amount you have to build. It amounts to needing to build a lot of unnecessary buildings (such as building more houses or military production buildings than you need). I am curious, though, on your take on how my building amounts are off?
Granted, this is based purely on what I see in my typical games, as well as streamed games that I’ve watched. I rarely ever get through two entire wood lines, before the game is over, so I was a bit generous with 12 Lumber Camps. I could probably add an extra mining camp, but in most my games, I go through 2-3 gold (rarely 4, if I get surrounded by mostly small mines) and 1-2 stone mines, but I’ve never had to build 16 military buildings to get the job done. Mind you, this is with aiming towards the usual 70-80 vill pop, as well. I typically end up with somewhere between 30-45 buildings, before the game is over…occasionally 50, if the game goes particularly long. Unless I am explicitly focusing on trying to get to Tier 3 and intentionally prolonging the game to try to get it, I just don’t hit it. That coupled with having to build more than you need to reasonably hit it just makes it seem impractical and counterintuitive to me.
Well I’m not an expert in exactly how many vills you are supposed to aim for but in aoe2 and it seems similar in aoe4 you usually want like 120 vills, and post imp you really should be building bare minimum 10 production buildings, probably more. Also towers are actually good in this game so usually you build some of those too. The point of it being so high is so an Abbasid player doesn’t get +20% to gather and mil production rates as that is really strong in like castle age.
The meta in AoE4, so far, is roughly around 80 vills. It’s a lot lower than AoE2, because the game has a much faster pace and vills gather a lot faster than AoE2. Granted, that could change, but that’s currently what the aim is.
As for buildings, yeah. The few games that I have that end up deep in Imperial age, I end up with around 8-10 mil production buildings (4-5 of each part of my army comp). Like I said, in most games I’ve played that have reached deep Imperial Age, I’m sitting comfortably around 45-50 buildings. Anything more than that and I would have to intentionally prolong the game to get to Tier 3…as in, I would have to deliberately choose to go for Tier 3 over securing the win.
Well then I’d agree with you, if you are leading the game to a swift end in your favour then your eco is not a focus. Imo, imperial clickup is just there for stubborn enemies that need a canon or two to the face, but most of the time i’d spend those resources on 12-20 units.
Take your win conditions when they scream at you.
However, booming as the Abbasid is perfectly viable, and here is where you can get a great lead by getting tier 3 golden asap.
I’d say Arabia and Altai are some of the maps where you can’t do this. Also not vs Mongols.
My last game as tier 3 Abbasid was against French. Map French pass. He rushed mid with outposts and built palisades at my chokes. He went for two tcs after getting 5-8 royal knights. So i was at the defense for most of the game until he built stone walls behind his palisade and falled back with the knights.
Tier 3 functional building count for this game was:
2 TCs
18 houses
8 lumber
3 mills
4 mining
6 barracks
2 archery
2 stables
1 siege
4 outposts
2 blacksmiths
1 market
1 mosque
1 keep
I just had to build 5-6 extra houses to link resources and got bonus at about 16 minute mark. Then clicked up to imperial at 18.
Using large buildings to link up your resources is best. Honestly i just spam 6-8 houses once im past the wood cost. Then i transition to more food and gold.
Siege workshop are also mad expensive. Id rather train a single unit at a time than a burst of spriegalds/mangonels from multiple buildings but with idle time
Oh yeah, I agree 100% that it’s always reasonable to go for Tier 3, if you are going for a turtle strat. I suppose, to put it more eloquently, I don’t think that there is a lot of fluidity with Tier 3, as the numbers currently are. You either turtle or you never see it. Of course, that may be by design, in the sense that you take the trade off. It could very well just be my playstyle, as I don’t really turtle ever. My general playstyle is to aim for applying consistent pressure and eco harassment over the course of the game, as well as securing map control. Even when I go for a 2 TC Boom, I generally end up around 45 buildings.
Question about your build there, your listed buildings only add up to 55. Did you just add extra houses into that and omit them from those numbers? Honestly, I think that even lowering it by 5-10 would make it more practical. The main thing that I am seeing is that you are basically required to build at least a handful of unnecessary buildings to achieve that mark (such as continuing to build houses, when you’re well past pop cap). To me, if we are expected to build unnecessary buildings to achieve it, then it needs to be dialed back a bit.
Yes, I do not count houses which have no pop purpose. However, I often place them as walls around keeps or somewhere “useful”.
A PSA of some sort: if you lose buildings you lose the golden age. So even going into 70 or 80 buildings can be better at later stages of the game were you bank resources.
I can also tell you that only the second blacksmith is not producing constantly. My six barracks are building MAA and spears, archeries are getting crossbows and the odd camel archer while my single siege workshop is getting spriegalds.
Abbassid golden ages are really strong. Golden age tier 2 is akin of having a better tier two economy instead of the flat 15% you would get from tier 2 eco upgrades (with no aditional cost aside from proper base building). So you are saving 1050g and 300ish f/w because you are not “yet” spending on these upgrades.
Then 20% building speed is beast like. You are building the same units from 5 facilities as if you had 6. Here is why i dont see extra buildings as “useless” because there’s always some use for aditional houses if you lose a corne of your base, or you can delay a push into a keep because there are houses around it.
What i’m trying to say is that my take is much more optimal from my point of view because im trading resources for resources. Id rather get golden ages before economic upgrades. Sometimes i wont even get economic upgrades as my armies will be massive enough to delete my enemies.
Then if you get castle/imperial and house of wisdom jmperial economic wing upgrade you get 35% gather rate. Your vills will have 15~25% more gather rate over other civs. You can comfortably delete 20 vills and still have a decent income with 60-70 vills.
in late imp is a riddle to me tbh.
At late imp i slap down at least 10 of each lel.
Due to the fact how supply block works in AoE4 its absolutely viable to even have like 30 Barracks and have them all preproduce Units so you basically get an instant new army as soon as your current army dies.
And if the game doesnt reach PostImp Tier3 shouldnt be a thing. Its Abbassid Post Imp Strength.
