There is no need to do anything for the japanese. They are quite good civs both in water and non and currently seem to be lacking because of that not so good pathing. Although they do well even now.
Japanese samurai already have arson so giving them more pierce armor is too op.
This is pretty questionable. Japanese Champions have a higher DPS (ability to deal more damage faster is arguably a major part of pop efficiency), and especially do more damage against more highly armored units (non-unique) due to having more attack, and have a greater bonus against Eagles to boot. This even factors in Samurai’s slightly faster attack rate, which actually shocked me with how underwhelming it is compared to Japanese champs (spoiler; for every 20 attacks the Jap champ gets, the samurai gets one extra, 21; 5% extra attack speed is a bad trade off for dealing 8% less damage.) So, except against the slow melee UUs I mentioned, advantage champion. Samurai have +10 hp, which gives them a slight advantage in survivability, although it still ends up making almost no difference vs range, and even in melee, I suspect it’s largely equalized or at the point of negligibility due to the higher damage output of the champ.
So, what we get is a unit that, in a number of situations, is actually less pop efficient than the champ, and is far less cost-efficient except when it can engage with UUs, and is arguably a worse all-purpose unit than the champ. This was in HD, pre-supplies (SoTL did a video about it) and samurai were already pretty lackluster, and rarely seen used effectively (or at all) at higher levels. The comparison to Goths was apt because Supplies greatly increased the opportunity cost of using both them and Samurai. The question to ask is, when to make samurai? And the answer is pretty clearly only against melee (preferably infantry) UUs. Heck, even then, you can make a good argument for making straight Japanese champs even against Goths - although they don’t have a bonus against huskies, they still shred them without a bonus, and will do better cost-effectively against Goth champs and halbs. The point being that Supplies is an unequivocal nerf to an already very niche unit in the Samurai. Trust me, I like Japanese almost as much as I like Goths, but most of the time I’m struggling to find a good use for Samurai; it’s pretty clear that they’re in a bad spot as far as balance is concerned.
I know it’s tempting to compare the Japanese Champ vs. Samurai situation to the epic discussion we enjoyed about Arbalest vs. Rattan, but the Rattan has a much broader range of situations in which it excels than the Samurai, and you can make much better arguments for the Rattan not only being better at “archering” than the Arb, but also having a much more useful niche that is easier to take advantage of than the Arb or the Samurai. It’s a lot more of a stretch to make this argument in the Champ vs. Samurai comparisons.
Not quite sure what you mean here.
Obviously the 3 ele techs would be useless.
Well, my idea has always been to balance Kamandaran by making it an Imp tech, so that would solve that, or simply ban it if it remained in Castle, since it would obviously be OP for any civ that gets Arb. But Thalassocracy? Not a bad tech, by any means, but it’s been nerfed pretty hard, and I don’t at all see how it is the obvious choice, even for a water map.
In fact, most non-ele Castle techs would be quite good. Here are my top picks for that I might choose, on land or water
-Atlatl, for awesome skirmishers with full armor (unlike Aztecs)
-Kasbah, for faster Castle production
-Yeomen, for better tower attack, and +1 Arb range
-Stirrups, for better light cav
-Greek fire, for better fire ships (islands, anyone?)
-Stronghold, as you mentioned, for towers
-Great wall, same,
-Steppe husbandry, for pumping out light cav, or excellent Jap Cav Archers,
-Sultans, for faster gold income, even allowing relics to generate gold faster (useful on islands, no?)
-Pavise, for stronger archers
-Hill Forts, or Tigui, for better defensive TCs
-Thalassocracy, as you mentioned
-Obsidian Arrows, for Siege archers
-Carrack, for extra ship armor (useful on islands, no?)
-Silk Armor, for some cav archers with crazy PA
-Sipahi, for Turk-tier CA
-Chieftains, for some gratuitous anti-cav madness…
There are a lot of good choices that would provide great synergy with existing Jap bonuses, but without being overpowered. And it goes with the “flexibility” that the Japanese are associated with.
Maybe not, but other civs have gotten buffs that they arguably didn’t need (Kamandaran). I would love to see the Samurai become a good unit again, and honestly, I think Japs could do with a +5% per age boost to their fishing ship work rate. A 5-10% gather boost is pretty weak for resources that are regularly 8+ tiles apart, and anything that could call into question the undisputed dominance of Italians on water is worth considering, IMO
Welll, you could say that regarding just about any tech that’s “good, but not OP.” If you’re already winning, you don’t “need” any kind of boost, and if you’re already losing, anything but a huge boost probably isn’t enough to save you.
As far as I know, they had hesitated between the hand cannon and the longbow, and they still used the longbow mainly until the musket was invented. In the same time, mainland countries like German, French and Hungarian started to equipped lots of guns in their standing army.
Of course some other unique techs have their unreasonable points, but this topic are about Japanese. You can create another one for Mayan, and I might discuss the problems about Obsidian arrows and Plumed archers with you there.
How can you learn your teacher’s knowledge when your teacher does not know it?
If both of them can get the guns, okay it is great. However, if there are only one of them can get it, that should be Chinese without a doubt. And I have told that Mongols can get the guns when it nerf other units like removing Onager and Siege ram, whatever.
That is what the wagon should be, but it also needs some fine adjustments to make it different from ballista elephants. What Koreans needs now is don’t just depending on the tower and the wagon only.
Actually, I support to adjust Goths by removing the guns and nerfing the eco, then giving the wall and plate mail armor to it. But this is also another topic.
So that is the problem. Japanese trains cavalry for mission like defending the siege monk rush or late-game raiding, never for being the main power. But Korean can not do even these things. The hussar will lose to the light cavalry while having no bloodline and blast Furnace.
Even if Korean has cavalry like Japanese, it will still not be OP.
Then? Korean as well as Teuton still keep “towering”. It shows that the changing is not enough.
Sorry but I am still hard to see the high level players research it while facing stalemates. I always trust that the high level players prove a tech meaningful or meaningless. Kataparuto is helpful but spending time and resources on making more trebs may be more useful to break stalemates than researching it.
That is how I consider about an unique tech. Basically, it should improve the weakness, strengthen the advantage or create new possibility of strategy. It must be not only good enough but also very useful cause it is more hard to be researched than other common tech. Once it has too little influence on the battle, it loses meaning.
Ribauldequin - Wikipedia They didn’t hesitate, they brought some in France nad used them.
I won’t, because unique techs not being 100% historically accurate is fine, and keeping what can be kept is better than shuffling everything. Boiling Oil being removed is fine because unlike all other techs mentionned here it was useless, which isn’t the case of Obsidian arrows (also I said nothing about Plumes?)
Since you want that for historical accuracy (because there is 0 balance reason to give gunpowder to Chinese) then there is no reason to limit the civs which get new toys (speaking of changing 20 years old tech trees: there is a good reason Chinese receiving Block printing for accuracy caused an uproar. Gunpowder? Oh god)
They are already different: only thing is common is that they have the cavalry armor class and fire a projectile that looks (but don’t act) the same. Then again, no need to fix what is not problem.
Come on, how can you nerf what is already bottom-tier
Welp, after reading the “goth economy nerf” part, some people might disregard the rest
Since a real h’wacha can launch hundred of arrows at once… That would not be the same unit.
There are still difference, and those chariots were Chinese only. Plus they were for civilian purpose. Only way they could make it worse is creating a weaponized trade cart.
First, crossbows are actual weapons, unlike the mentioned chariot, and Italian crossbowmen were renowed and hired as mercenary in whole Europe, that’s why they are fitting.
Welp, initially the Vikings were going to have no castle unit because of the Drakkar and then they got a fitting land UU. Of course what is done is done and that’s why the War wagon won’t be scrapped/tweaked/whatever
They don’t lose to villagers nor to trade carts.
It would just remove one of their weaknesses. What could go wrong?
The purpose was to make the strategy less powerful, not to remove it. And anyway all tower rushers are Inca now.
I’m pretty much sure I’ve already seen huge armies of trebuchets with this tech tearing everything, even in pro players games. Also the tech pays for itself after 2 trebuchets.
Ok so what does Kataparuto does for the Treb?
Does it alleviate a weakness? Yes, since instead of waiting 11 seconds to have your treb ready, you only have to wait 3 seconds. Not only it means you won’t have to wait as much, but you can easily unpack it to protect it from incoming threats.
Does it improve a strength? Definitely, since +33% firing rate on top of the already monstruous damage output is a huge buff.
Trebs are a castle unit so it’s not like you have to go out of your way to get the tech.
Since it makes your trebs much better than those of 32 other civs and on par with the 2 top tier civs…
Uproar? where? I have never heard the players are arguing on this since the change.
Almost no Chinese player go monk rush in Imperial age. In the other hand, even it add the block printing, it can remove other monk tech if Chinese monks are regarded to be OP because ancient China was not focus on religion as important as Europe. Buff one and nerf the another one, so as guns.
In my opinion, Goth is not bad. Having the stone wall and the plate mail armor will make it stronger too much, so it must lose another things.
That is not what I told about. Not only villagers and carts will be faced by your raiders. The raiders are weaker, the efficiency of raiding get worse. For example, you may sent 20 Korean hussars to rival’s backyard but only 5 can get there, then only 6 villagers will be killed before those 5 die. No mention that if the rival do the same thing on you, you will get more hurt than him.
I am not asking for removing, and I have never deny the civ bonus about towers. Even if the team is trying, but I regard the result is still not well as what it should be.
Of course I knew it is good. I told it is useful before. But in the fact, this tech is rare to be researched, similar to paper money.
The tech here means all the unique tech, not only Kataparuto.
So you spend resource and time to have a treb better than 32 civ but still have too little influence on the battle, well…
Why not train more units or research other tech first? It is emergency, right?
The first post in this topic feature the history fact about Japan, so what I regarded about what this topic about is discussing “Japanese may be good enough now but what can be changed if it has to improve the historic accuracy?”. If you regard that nothing should be changed or the accuracy is not matter, well, this topic might be not fit you, I guess…
But It still welcomes anyone, anyway. It is also good that discuss such many things with you.
A lot of pro player said it. It because chu ko nus can only be countered with siege onager. Now, Chinese can convert onagers at a safe rage, which mean chu kos are virtually impossible to counter (when you have a good number, of course)
Well, I have never saw this situation until the change. Basically, I see people use skirmishers instead of onagers to counter chu ko nu in Imperial age, no matter before or after the change.
But just like what I told…
Monks rush are performed in castle, and Chinese can use this strat because they get cheaper techs. And unlike Burmese, they aren’t down one whole military building (welp, technically skirms that are worse than Turks one do count I guess?)
According to thsi logic why Franks and Britons don’t get a full monastery tree?
Adding block printing was a bit misguided. Guns would be much worse, as it would force the civ to be radically changed from what it has been during 20 years.
Welp, in reality, they are almost bad enough to be Vietnamese’s rug lol.
That’s called being Ethiopian.
Then again, civs need to have weaknesses. And it’s not because you don’t have top-tier light cav that you will let your enemy boom in peace, right? Also, how come Teutons/Vikings, who are even worse at raiding, courtesy of lacking Husbandry, don’t need to be reworked as much as you want Koreans?
Well, if you want to see games where a Korean player doesnt trush https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejYfSAwPF9k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe5Wx9W4u4Q&t=2545s
While in these games there are a lot ofWar wagons, it’s just because it’s a good enough UU to be massed, like Conqs.
I’m pretty much sure it’s more researched than Paper money, for the mere reason Japs are much more played than Viets.
Yes, but you think that Kataparuto isn’t good enough justify the fact it’s a castle tech. But since the unit it affects is a castle unit, this criteria is irrelevant here.
-Machine gun treb (same boost as on Jap infnatry btw) -can literally run away unlike all other trebs -Celts and Brits have to pay as well And you call that little impact?
They are good. No hesitation on that.
It’s completely for me then, since people sometimes have trouble to remember than balance>accuracy. It’s not an opinion, it’s how this game has been designed since the beginning. Even in AoM there are historical innacuracies, like Greek being able to train archers before javelin throwers, even tho the history section of each units clearly states that Greeks first used nothing but hoplites, then experimented with auxiliarry troops like peltasts (thousand of years after Trojan wars btw) and even later started using bows. But of course if they were any accurate you would only get hoplites and then good luck to make them balanced.
Welp, happy to see you are more open-minded than some others
I support this motion. The only way to balance an unstoppable powerhouse like Goth is to nerf the hell out of their overpowered eco. In order to do this, Gothic villagers, when tasked to work, should slowly lose resources instead of gathering them, making villagers tasked to gold, for example, act as “anti-relics.” Thus the Goths will only be able to thrive if massive stockpiles of resources are regularly tributed to them by a host player (this will be a historical change as well, since Goths at one point extorted tribute from the Romans).
Interesting, but it is too complex to play, you know.
I ban the eco because I give Goths the plate mail armor, making it almost no weakness in infantry battle so it needs the guns no more. Also, give the wall to protect their eco since the eco has been weaker than before.
Unlike Cumans, Goths had kingdoms so it worth the stone wall, and it had not used the guns since its kingdom had been over before the guns was invented.
Ok then I will help you understand: Goths have no eco bonus outside of the infantry discount, and said discount still doesn’t make up for the fact infantry gets roflstomped by knights in castle age. There is literally nothing to nerf.
Just meeting a dude with bonused infantry, or that gets HC themselves.
The deal is the same with Chinese: some design decision are historically wrong, but they have been in this game for 20 years.
Thanks but I don’t need the help here. What I told is Imperial farm tech or else.
Full champions with cheaper cost and quicker training, which civ can win Goths in just the infantry battle? Japanese? Vikings? Celts? NO, they can’t win until they use the archers as well as hand cannoneers. So Goths would not be afraid of the enemy infantry.
And that is why I said the topic doesn’t fit you, this would make the discussion meaningless.
So I faced Japanese in deathmatch today and let me say that they don’t need any buff. Those fast Trebs are disgusting in mass.
What, no thats not true, the Japanese got introduced to gunpowder by the Portoguese in i believe the late 15th or early 16th century. That is not the medieval ages anymore.
You’re speaking about the AoK timeframe. When AoC came out it extended the game’s period, and it includes late 16th century now (Point Noryang took place in 1598, that’s almost the 17th century) Look at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1u55p00wbpozOV2e2H_6Yccbb794CZPGw9-BgVgrDyaA/edit#gid=0 for more details
The original creator said during the middle ages, so i take that as the point. But if he meant what you said, then it would be correct.
Have you sources for the assumption that 70% of the world’s guns was in japan during the middle age ? It seems completly irrealist. arquebus for exemple was introduced in 1543 in Japan by portuguese trader. Japenese daumyo use it as a weapon for the peasant.
They should’nt give a bonus for a country that just purchased arquebus in the very end of the game time period…
The AoK timeframe was already pretty wide (with Goths and Persian being two antiquity civs and the Turks including the Ottomans), and since it’s the same team that made AoK and AoC, of course they meant to include later periods of time as well.