About Japanese civilization guns

During the Middle Ages, Japan was a country with 70% of the world’s guns.
It is strange why Japanese guns have no skill.
I’d like you to add skills with guns.

I think is due to balances. Japs are really complete civ, with amazing infantry, good siege, FU cavaliers, and light cav (don’t remember if they have hussars), FU Arbalesters, and the second or third best towers in the game. Plus, they’re amazing in water. I know it’s not accurate, but they have to lack something. Altough I think they could get hand cannonners… That would Change their metagame

Change “Kataparuto” to “Bushido”: Samurai get +2 pierce armor and +10% moving speed.
Japanese never used Trebuchets and Catapult in the history, but they learn Gunpowder from Portuguese and use it in the civil war. So give Japanese Bombard Cannon to re-balance that.
In the History, the duty of Samurai in the battle is charging at the front, but now they are hard to get closer to archer UU.

Maybe increase the speed of moving of hand cannoneers since HP, cost and speed of fire are increased by other civ. If Japanese can be buffed on hand cannoneers, it would like to remove the bloodline or husbandry for the balance. It doesn’t make the sense that Japanese cavalier are better than Korean.

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I really like this idea. Could be tested. About the bloodlines, idk. They need them for their cavalry archers, so I wouldn’t take it away.

Maybe cut them down to knights, and give them handcannons. Japanese were not a heavy cavalry civ, thought they can have a strong cav archer line.

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Basically, “Yabusame” (“流鏑馬”) is a kind of Shinto ritual. Even if it had been a form of military practice in the history, the Japanese bow riders should still be not strong than cavalry archers from Mainland Asian. It is a misunderstanding by Western people.

Yeah, I’ve thought about that. It would be a nice change, altough it will restrain their options a lot (hand cannonner are not that necessary when you have FU Arbalesters)

Not a good choice in my opinion, samurai cavalry were the main military power in the early Medieval Japanese history. Losing the plate armor and maybe one of bloodline and husbandry is good enough to nerf their cavalry.

Yeah, change their meta game as in not changing anything ?

Japanese already have hand cannons…

They got HC since AoK. Also, while the Jap cav is OK, they aren’t top tier, so no need to nerf that either.

It’s the same “western people” who gave an HP boost to Frank cav archers 11 (and allowed all civs minus Meso to train them in the first place) Also, even if it’s not as bad as it used to be, people are quite reluctant to use CA if they can’t FU them or have a bonus. For instance in AoC times the question wasn’t Persian or Jap CA (bracer vs bloodlines) but Mongols or Huns? Also Jap CAs in Castle are already weaker than those of dedicated cav archer civs in the same age, and also weaker than those of Portuguese and Vietnamese, which is…fanciful to say the least. The Jap CA taking the lead when compared to say, Huns in later stages does make sense since the Yabusame is something that survived quite a long time (still practiced today!) while the Huns never survived to reach the Middle age in the first place. Another example, Turks HCA remain top tier and Magyar become top tier in the late game even tho irl these factions abandonned this way of fighting as time passed on. But of course, HCA in feudal age would be completely broken.

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Welp, if this hasn’t been implemented it’s because Samurai would be the best siege weapon in the game with their machine gun attack rate. Oh and now there is Arson so it would be even worse. Also if you want a unit that can kill archers UU then use Huskarls (and it’s not like Japanese have FU skirms)

I meant to write “wouldn’t” haahaha

Man, i wan doubting a lot about this.
That’s it guys. Don’t change anything xD

Yes I knew it so I support that adding the bracer to Persian and remove the crossbow for balance. But you know that Japanese cavalry archers would not stronger than even Chinese cavalry archers in fact. If the hand cannoneers are not buffed, Japanese can keep the bloodline without a doubt, it is a balance problem. There is already the hand cannoneers, adding the bombard cannons and removing Kataparuto just make it reflecting history more perfectly. Look at Chinese gunpowder and Korean cavalry, they are the units that really need the fix.

I think it would not be a real problem because they still need at least one castle to train and research, and they are still weaker than Huskarls while facing the arrows, and it also doesn’t make them be stronger to face cavalry.

Oh k. But anyway, I think I should have started with this: only a select few civs have bonused Hand Cannoneers, so why Japanese should change?

I know people want accuracy, but you need to put limits sometimes. Because if we need more accuracy, with the example of gunpowder, we would end up with Briton being able to produce both longbows and … organ guns. Trust me you don’t want that to happen.

Hey, after all they get bonused Bombard towers! Not to mention if they receive HC and BBC for historical reason… Mongols would as well. Forget the Longbows+OG deathball, drill BBC+ Mangudai is even scarier 11

All civs need a weakness

Yeah, but they would dish out so much more damage. Also, you can kill Huskarls with Hussars, while there is no such easy answer to buffed Samurai.

Makes me think: why samurai losing to archers UU must be fix, but them dying to say, Cataphracts or War elephants is fine?

Look the first post. It is not my idea.

The team fabricated Kataparuto for improving the Japanese weak siege ability, so add the cannon can also keep the accuracy, maintain the purpose and change this imaginary tech.

Mongol army had gunpowder… because of Chinese engineers. Chinese had the earliest gunpowder weapons in the world and they taught Mongols and Koreans, then Korean installed the Chinese gunpowder weapon on the wagon for the fight. In my opinion, It can unlock all gunpowder after researching Rocketry, and remove some monk tech cause the religions had not affect Chinese as important as it affecting European.

Yeah the cavalry is the weakness for Koreans, but not in the current way.
They should have cavalry similar to Japanese: light cavalry, cavalier, bloodline, blast furnace and no plate armor. For balance, the war wagon could -20HP and change the class to cavalry siege unit like ballista elephants, then maybe remove the cannons or hand cannoneers if it needs this.

Huskarls can be popped from barracks cheaper and quicker, but not samurai. You have to build at least one castle for training, and then spend many resources on researching unique tech Bushido in Imperial age. It needs steps to become a tougher troop you worry about and not easy while facing the pressure from the rival.

Cataphracts and War elephants are melee units, samurai is still meaningful cause it can touch them. But the bonus becomes meaningless when it is hard to touch archer UU .

Just like they fabricated Brits without guns, Thumb ring on European/American civs and so on.

That’s exactly why I said that gunpowder on Chinese would imply gunpowder on Mongols.

Which btw is a reference to early gunpowder.

So you would tremendously buff their cav, and also their infantry. Why? If you really want cav+archer+siege there are other civs for that.

Cavalry+siege armor class is so baaaaaaaaaad. With that they would get rekt by Mangudai, Eagle warriors and Magyar huzzars, and would get flattened by onagers/BBC super fast. While still beng susceptible to halbs and camels.

Ok I’m getting lost: you want to tweak the Japanese so that they get BBC and then you seriously consider taking gunpowder away from Korea. Why would historical balance be so important in the first case and then it should be sacrificed for balance in the second?

Goths are BAD, while Japanese are good. That’s a much more important difference. Also Japanese siege is better than the goth one, so you would be able to put your Samurai in capped rams with sege engineer.

[quote=“UpmostRook9474, post:16, topic:71791”]
Cataphracts and War elephants are melee units, samurai is still meaningful cause it can touch them. But the bonus becomes meaningless when it is hard to touch archer UU .
[/quote] The way it’s done it’s quite logical: Samurai are much better than champions against melee UU, still better vs ranged unit (also they are faster already) and just as useless vs boats UU. If you’re in a situation where Samurai don’t make the cut the you switch to skirms/siege/cav

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Amazing is a strong word, and I think it goes to the Italians. Japs are decent on water, although I think Malay are better.

I like the idea of Samurai becoming decent again, but I don’t see why they should lose the best trebs in the game just for that, even if they get bomb cannons. Samurai, and a lot of other infantry UUs, should be buffed as a matter of course to keep up with the arms race caused by the Supplies tech, not as a replacement to excellent Imp UTs.

Meh, kind of overrated. It’s a decent attack rate, yes, but not that much better than Japanese champ, and there are very, very few scenarios in which you’d want to use them instead of champ, unfortunately, so I do think Samurai are in for a buff.

Elite Two-Handed Swordsmen
Elite Heavy Long Swordsmen
Elite Heavy Veteran Man-at-arms
Elite Heavy Veteran First Class Militia
Seriously, Samurai are not that good in DE. They’re in a similar place to the whole Goths civ, i.e. they’ve been power-creeped to near uselessness. They’re good against huskarls, berserks, karambits and teutonic knights, that’s about it.

I’ve always thought it would be interesting if the Japanese Imp UT was something like “Tekiō” (adaptation), whereby for their Imp tech, they can choose to research the Castle Age UT of a different civilization. There are some good techs they could pick without most of the combinations being overpowered. As it is, yes, the devs kind of made up the UT, which is derived from a true idea of the Japanese being very effective at learning from other nations, but the good bombard cannon bonuses are already taken, and so this is one of the historical inaccuracies we live with in Age2.

Against ranged units? Maybe, but not enough to make them not terrible against range, so any advantage there is pretty negligible. That’s kind of like saying that Arbs are better against Elite Huskarls than skirms; true, but never enough to be useful.


But thumb ring is a common tech, what I told about is the unique tech.
The common techs are not fit every civ obviously, and we could not make the content of the game 100% variety. Even AOE3 was not 100%, so that is the unfortunate sacrifice for the game itself. What these post talking about is how to make the tree as accurate as possible without breaking the balance rudely. If you are willing, you can rename them for accuracy, for example: handcart line -> slaves, mail armor line -> cotton armors, etc, whatever.
Btw, Britons used the gunpowder later than other mainland European countries as far as I know

You didn’t get what I said. If we have to add the guns to the civ which has no guns now, Chinese should have the priority. Discussing the Mongol guns is meaningless until Chinese get the guns. Even if Mongols has the guns, it could nerf another units for balance but that would be the another topic.

In fact, the war wagon had been the siege weapon, it became CA because Koreans was introduced into game earlier than Khmer. No matter -20HP or not, cavalry siege unit definitely not bad, and you still can see the ballista elephants in high level games. If there is any problem, it still can fine adjust the data.

  1. Japanese used guns more than Korean definitely.
  2. The war wagon was the gunpowder actually, in the current game it has attack bonus vs buildings.
  3. I told that only happened when another units are too strong to keep the balance. It still could remain the guns while cavalry are still their weakness.

Do you often see the Japanese cavalry in the battle? It is still the weakness and I think it is okay to buff their infantry with blast furnace. If the infantry should not be affected, that could switch the blast furnace into the plate board armor.
The Koreans in the game becomes so boring now, almost every player goes tower rush + war wagon. It would be wonderful if the meta could get a little change.

Well, I seldom see Kataparuto. In most of occations, producing more trebs and units to push the siege may be useful than spending resources on researching this, especially trebs competition in the earlier Imperial age. When you are lead the game, this tech is a little bit unnecessary. When you are behind, this tech become useless. So embarrassing.

I agree that ancient Japanese were good at learning the knowledge, but researching techs of other civ is hard to be reality in the game.

not that they need better cavalry, but i just wanted to point it out that japenese dont get the last armor upgrade for their cavalry so they dont have FU cavaliers ( im assuming you meant “Fully Upgraded” when you said FU!! ), sooo basically their cavalier is a total garbage in imperial. but their light cav is still reliable tho since you mostly want them either for raiding or dealing with skirmishers

They used it (including organ guns) during the Hundred years war, like the French. But in game only Franks get it, because they don’t have god tier archers.
Also, some unique techs are even worse than Kataparuto when you think of it: for instance Obsidian arrows is a very bad name for something 100% arbitrary since Mayans only had obsidian as a good material for weapons (ie.it’s like a tech named steel sword to improve your knights), and as far as I know glass arrows would be even worse than metal arrow to shoot on hard surfaces.

Nah, both should get it at the same time. Why historical accuracy should be more important for Chinese than for Mongols?

Ballista Elephants have god-tier bulk and they have pass through damage, so a deathball of them is better than a War wagon deathball but they have low damage while in low number, while war wagons are meant to be usable when you have a small forces of them.

And Korean definitely did so more than Goths 11

The war wagon is a VERY BAD replacement for the H’wacha (the onager bonuses are a better substitute anyway). Out of all fabricated things in this game War wagons are the most obvious one, since they are based… on civilian Chinese chariots. It’s like doing a RTS that takes place today and the special weapon of France is a British bus…

More often than the Korean one.

That’s precisely why Tower rush was nerfed, and the speed boost for defense construction was replaced by a wood bonus, so that they can be used as an archer/spear civ (and become an actual naval civ as well)

Yeah, Kataparuto “merely” put Jap trebs on part with Celts and Britons one. They can literally break stalemates (ie.nor behind nor ahead) because they allow you to defend your castles better while being more effective against the opposing ones.

I will have to disagree. Unlike Gothic infantry, Samurai are still more pop-efficient than normal Champions, and losing to Champions on a cost basis isn’t as bad as losing to Hussars on a cost basis.

misscliks on Howdah
Anyway, while in the current balance people would choose Kamandaran 100% of the time on land, and Thalassocracy on water, this idea would have the funny upside of making Stronghold sometimes useful (if it proves to combo better with Yasama than Great wall would)