About the water balance

[DukeOfLorraine]

@TheTowerDefender

this could be achieved by a balance change. eg fire galleys are affected by melee upgrades, or ships in general are affected by infantry armor upgrades.

no need to include a clunky ugly ship for that.

I assume the fishing nets were a placeholder for a proper grappling hook animation, just like cumans and meso civs were given the cannon galleon as a placeholder for the catapult galleon.

But if any ship has to be “demoted” to make some room it’s the fire ship, it should be much less common, perhabs even a byzantine UU, as they were a rare sight, as opposed to the simple tactic of boarding that everybody used until the range of guns became excessive (becoming second fiddle in the 16th century with the line of battle and finally disappearing in the 19th). Having smithing upgrade improve your greek fire also would make little sense.

As for the demo ship, it could be supplemented by the option of turning any ship into a burning ship, to be set loose on the enemy. Another common historical tactics, take your worst old ships that wouldn’t last long anyway and use them in an uncrewed kamikaze strike.

[TheTowerDefender]

@DukeOfLorraine

But if any ship has to be “demoted” to make some room it’s the fire ship, it should be much less common, perhabs even a byzantine UU, as they were a rare sight, as opposed to the simple tactic of boarding that everybody used until the range of guns became excessive (becoming second fiddle in the 16th century with the line of battle and finally disappearing in the 19th). Having smithing upgrade improve your greek fire also would make little sense.

until cannons were popular, most medieval naval warfare was ships boarding each other and basically fighting land battles on floating platforms. Considering that this aspect isn’t in the game at all, I think realism is out the window, fell on to the street and got on a bus.

Firegalleys are visually distinct and their short range attack is still visually clear, so for gameplay reasons the fire galley is great. Smithing upgrades benefitting them makes about as much sense as them benfitting galleons. Visually galleons fire scorpion bolts, which aren’t affected by blacksmith upgrades.

Some thrown hooks being affected by blacksmith upgrades is equally nonsensical.

Fire galley are the closest thing we have to a melee ship (until hulks), melee units are affected by melee blacksmith ugprades.

[DukeOfLorraine]

The hooks imply it’s boarding, you use them to keep both ships close. Much better than a flamethrower. The game’s engine wouldn’t allow proper boarding as you see in Total War or Bannerlords so it’s close enough.

[TungstenBoar]

They should move cannon galleons, demos and unique ships (alongside their upgrades) to a new building. Idk if 6 ships is too much, but it would be better than have them all in the same place

Also, I feel like the catapult galleon is pointless when dromons exist and less historically accurate for american civs than cannon galleons. I would prefer if Dromons became a upgrade of catapult galleys and stopped being as good as cannon galleons as taking down buildings. Basically, turn the ship into a water mangonel

[smiki5five]

Melee ship
I really dislike the idea of melee ship throwing hooks as an attack. Make it ram enemy vessels instead.

Monk ship
Add a monk ship (let’s call it “boarding ship” or “pirate vessel”) which uses hooks to convert enemy vessels. It’d be fast moving and low HP, and can only convert up close, so you need multiple to successfully convert enemy fleets.

Civs historically famous for piracy (Berbers, potentially Croats) could get techs that slow down boarded enemy units or repair the monk ships over time.

@DukeOfLorraine

But if any ship has to be “demoted” to make some room it’s the fire ship, it should be much less common, perhabs even a byzantine UU, as they were a rare sight, as opposed to the simple tactic of boarding that everybody used until the range of guns became excessive (becoming second fiddle in the 16th century with the line of battle and finally disappearing in the 19th). Having smithing upgrade improve your greek fire also would make little sense.

Rather than outright removing it, I’d replace the animation so that instead of spitting fire it’d shot boiling oil. Civs like Byzantines and Chinese would be able to upgrade oil into fire.

@Skadidesu

Illogical triangle

+1.

[Apocalypso4826]

@smiki5five

I really dislike the idea of melee ship throwing hooks as an attack. Make it ram enemy vessels instead.

And how would that functionally work differently from demo ships?

@smiki5five

Add a monk ship (let’s call it “boarding ship” or “pirate vessel”) which uses hooks to convert enemy vessels. It’d be fast moving and low HP, and can only convert up close, so you need multiple to successfully convert enemy fleets.

I like that idea, actually. It’s one I had myself.

@smiki5five

Rather than outright removing it, I’d replace the animation so that instead of spitting fire it’d shot boiling oil.

Fire Ships can already be understood to be an abstraction for this particular concept.

[smiki5five]

@Apocalypso4826

And how would that functionally work differently from demo ships?

Demo are one use only. Ramming ships would function like the new hulk line, a bulky tank unit.

[Apocalypso4826]

But ramming ships didn’t work like this. It was basically a one-and-done. Also, I don’t think ramming was actually used in the Middle Ages.

[smiki5five]

@Apocalypso4826

But ramming ships didn’t work like this. It was basically a one-and-done.

IRL you need momentum for the ram to work, but allowing ram ships to continuously bump opponents wouldn’t really be jarring IMHO, the game does similar silliness sometimes (units throwing scimitars or double axes).

Also, I don’t think ramming was actually used in the Middle Ages.

Close enough to me:

Medieval galleys instead developed a projection, or “spur”, in the bow that was designed to break oars and to act as a boarding platform for storming enemy ships. The only remaining examples of ramming tactics were passing references to attempts to collide with ships in order to destabilize or capsize them.

[Geojak92]

I don’t like the current ship uu balance. Some are insane like that fairy tale Indian civ ship or the new Chinese uu super op, or how Roman have antic better than cannon galeon.

I doubt the new system changes anything about what I dislike anyway so I rly don’t see the need to change generic ships afters 25 years.

[TommoChocolate]

@TheTowerDefender

Visually galleons fire scorpion bolts, which aren’t affected by blacksmith upgrades.

They were in AoK, but it was changed in The Conquerors. (Apologies if you know this already.)

[smiki5five]

Very good post from another thread:

@CouguarLoup7693

Finally a very bad rework

Very bad rework because some civilizations ((Vikings, Portuguese, Koreans) loose access to demolition ship because of the IU. We say them that it was possible to keep access to all the ships without changing the IU see below.

Also we must to go to another building (university) to research the naval technology.

Here a proposal to keep access to al the ship line and having all the naval technology in the dock :

Also the new Catapult Galleon only available to Aztecs, Cumans, Inca, and Maya is very bad because many other civilizations before gunpowder era can benefit from him, see the list here.

No new sail type for south asian civilizations and south american civilizations.

[Mahazona]

@DukeOfLorraine

Goths should have dromons. I actually thought they had it.

Goths Huns Byzantines Romans Armenians have the dromons.

[DukeOfLorraine]

I knew it, I am not crazy I am not crazy I am not crazy I am not…

[smiki5five]

Resurrecting the thread because I’ve watched an interesting video:

Why naval warfare is so bad in RTS

[CouguarLoup7693]

Merging the military upgrade

I think the upgrade technology of the demolition ship must be merged with the other military warship upgrade. With this we can re-put demolition ship for civilization with a naval UU.

More resource type on water

One problem of water is the lack of resource. First we had fishing ship who gather food. Then fishing ship who gather gold (oyster whales). Ad beaver hut as a gold resource in river.

For the other resource we can ad for wood : drifted wood, there is new object in the next DLC make them harvestable. Also we ca allow fishing ship to collect wood on water tree already in game (reed, mangrove tree).

A stone income gain be obtain by harvesting corral.

Make shipwreck harvestable with a decay rate.

Deposit resource on ship

Some tiny island are not worth to build a building to deposit ressource here, even the tiny island can be to little to construct any building. ad the option to drop of resource in transport ship.

Aggressive animal on water

In AoE3 there is treasure guardian in water : hippopotamus and crocodile. Making aggressive animal in water who attack only fishing boat. Fishing boat can gain an attack against them (and only against them, not against any military or enemy building)

Make transport unit by more ship

In the Viking sagas DLC a short video show viking landing on a beach from transport ship and there is longship with them, why they didn’t land from the longship instead ? Make another ship carry troop with less garrison space than a transport ship. Also some military technology can increase the garrison capacity of non transport ship by 1.

Bonus if you garrison unit in ship

Also ranged unit can increase the number of arrow of a longship, melee unit can increase the attack of n hulk, etc. You gain more damage but also you loose all your garrisoned units if the ship is sink. Another bonus can be an increase of speed in rowing ship.

Make villager able to build ship

Some unit can already build transport ship in AoE4. Make a third panel in the building menuy of the villager. Also villager can increase the training time if they are garrisoned in dock or if they repair dock with their hammer (they don’t repair, they build ship, it’s the same animation)

Building on water

There is building on water dock, sea wall, sea gate, sea tower. Make fishing ship able to construct those building. No building can be construct in deep water.

Building bride can also be good, also bridge where ship can go below.

More terrain type on water

Water is just water, no obstacle, just flat water without elevation. In AoE 4 they make an equivalent of forest to ambush : Sargassum seaweed and this is horrendous, we can hide in forest but not in Sargassum seaweed because we are above water.

Make terrain who slow down unit like Sargassum seaweed. Terrain who damage ship like reef or iceberg. Imagine an iceberg who can move on the map and damage ship if they come next.

Tempest terrain can also damage ship or lower their range, line of sight.

Fog : A second filter on map can reduce the range and line of sight of the unit (can also function for land units).

Corral can increase the gathering rate of fish trap, god idea to put here your fishtrap insteaf of next of your dock.

Three good videos by admiral Wololo

Three Ways to ENHANCE Water in AoE2!

How DANGER Can Improve Water (AoE2)

What if BRIDGES Were Buildable? (AoE2)

[smiki5five]

Giving the Onager Ship from Chronicles to all the ranked civs might also be an interesting idea, as it’d force players to switch between formations on water just like on land in order to avoid the shots.