I believe a lot of people tend to agree that the “Coffee Trade” tech at the Dutch church causes some issues for the Dutch in the late game. It’s almost required for the two extra banks, but hurts the ability of skirmishers and Ruyters to hit and run.
Want if the devs gave the Dutch “Liberation March”? It makes Cavalry and Infantry train 35% faster and move 5% faster.
It’s net result would be faster units late game who train slightly slower. It would also require one less card in treaty/team games (Riding School and Fencing School would have to be removed) and in team games I think it would help because the Fortress Age card slots are probably in slightly less demand than the Commerce Age card slots for the Dutch.
It would also be worth adding that at one point the Spanish ruled over the Netherlands, and that a Dutch rebellion ended that. I’ll admit I’m not an expert on the Eighty Years’ War, but it seems like a connection between the Spanish (one of only two civs with the card) and the Dutch that would seem to make a good historical reason to do it.
What do you think of the idea?
If you read this post thank you! This is my first post on this forum
essa carta deveria ser para todas as civilizações europeias
I said it before and will do so again, fencing and riding school should be combined for all civs that have them.
Or add a free tech or units like 3 royal musks for France.
That means all european civs get one extra card. Why do they deserve such buff?
Due to gaining viability, lack of space in the deck (specifically in treaty), for solve problems like coffe trade (martin say this) or contribute originality as it happened with France add 3 royal musk to fencing school for ex.
I think giving the Dutch “Liberation March” would solve issues they have. Players could choose to either try to use the extra speed instead of using coffee trade (rewarding good micro) or use coffee trade but still have a little more speed than they have now.
The Dutch specifically have a lot of Bank cards that are basically required for a decent economy late game. So saving them one card doesn’t seem like too much. I don’t believe the Dutch are considered OP, the small buff would be nice.
On the separate subject regarding other civilizations, combining fencing and riding school would be a quite significant change. And I think those cards are already good in team. I’d be careful making such a large change. I think the best buffs you could (should is a separate question) do for them would either be give a small number of units (like the three royal musketeers for France) or move the cards to Age I.
Two cards I think could be combined are Fencing and Dueling School. They could be moved to age III for Russia. Russia has four training speed cards and as far as I’m aware Russia is considered weak in 1v1 and is not overpowered in treaty anymore (I’d have to ask someone who plays treaty as I’ve been out of that scene for a little while). Infantry training 65% faster in one card for Russia in age III wouldn’t seem too powerful given the fact that Russia isn’t too strong.
the only thing to watch out for is that it gives extra speed to dutch halbs which already can get to like 5.5 speed and it gets pretty close to being a super rods
Speed halbs with dutch is the only reason I never go coffee trade, but they really don’t need more speed than they have now.
It would be possible to add -5% halb speed to Liberation March. Mexico doesn’t get Halbs and Spain can only get like 13 (halbs from the Church card).
It would also be possible to change the halb speed card to +15% speed. Though I think the first option would be better.
Holland with 4-5 banks can play too comfortable, doing hit and run, Ryters with skirmisher combo, he can create it once he has a lot of skirmisher mass with ryters, which on top can be created fast for the 2 + 5% of speed is stupid, Ryters is an amazing unit with a high base speed giving him 5% + speed is making him unnecessarily broken
oh yeah extra speed on ryuters might be also be a danger
I could see it going either way. It would have to be closely monitored. The main thing I don’t like with Dutch right now is Skirmishers have a max speed of 4 after coffee trade (assuming you get Military Drummers) and Ruyters have 6.52 speed (not even enough to outrun a Hussar. Dutch Hussars end up with 6.07 speed.
Having those numbers end up more like skirm 4.20, Ruyter 6.88 (can actually slightly outrun Hussars), and Hussar 6.41 would be a lot less painful. Minus 10% speed is a lot to let you pay to build two more banks (and I know that’s an old tech and it’s been like that for years).
Liberation March seemed like a decent way to fix something I’ve seen other people complain about. It also would seem to help with an issue I’ve noticed about Dutch having a hard time fitting cards into age II and the deck in general. If you want bank upgrades they take a lot of space and you need at least a few of them to be competitive late game.
Perhaps just changing Coffee trade a bit would be a better move. Maybe +2 bank build limit for -30% villagers hp or something like that idk
I think the easiest change is just removing that speed penalty and add a cost to coffee trade. its essentially a card that gives you 2 additonal banks since you need the church card to get the tech anyway. if this slows tempo too much we can make it send a wagon or something, kind of like how dutch immigrants works for the US
to me the obvious solution is to fix the first problem, not add extra solutions that cause more problems.
ie. no speed penalty, make it something different. make the tech have a cost, only a handful of euros even have a tech with a downside. when was the last time there was a tech added to the game with a penalty…?? 2005?
Dutch need no more buffs, since last patches all I see is them making damn mercenaries. Highlander are too much already.