AI Player lists (Historical Leaders)

Glad you like the fixed Minoan list! Nabonassar is indeed an excellent choice (and without hyphens too, good find!)

What do you think of the East Asian civ leader lists? How might we fix them?

@mythdracon said:
Sure, but Gorgo is nice for a female option as she was the Spartan queen who basically took over after Leonidas lost his life (until the co-regency).
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Stop using cartoonish stuff like “300” as historical sources. The actual historical sources (as Herodotus for example) only mention Gorgo as giving advice to his father (also a king of Sparta) not ruling anything in her own name.

I agree Gorgo wasn’t popular in her own time.

@Opt1mvs First of all, you assume I relied on 300 as a historical source. Have you even read this thread? I research using Google and the historical sources it reveals (and for my part I’ve read works by Thucydides and Herodotus, so don’t lecture me about “actual historical sources”. Here is what history tells us about Gorgo, Queen of Sparta:

  1. Daughter of a Spartan king, wife of a Spartan king, mother to a Spartan king
  2. Like many Spartan women, she would have had a lot of physical and combat training
  3. At the age of eight or nine, she advised her father to decline bribes (from a man who wanted Spartan support for an Ionian revolt against Persia–this revolt, by the way, led to Persia’s attack on Greece)
  4. She was a counsellor to both her father and her husband, and accompanied Leonidas on a diplomatic mission to secure Athenian allies. There, she was asked by an Attican woman “Why is it that only Spartan women can control their men?” Gorgo replied: “Because only Spartan women give birth to men” (sassy implication being, other Greek women don’t birth real men)
  5. Herodotus mentions her fairly often, which is surprising because Herodotus rarely mentions women, especially Greek women, and he also pointed out Gorgo’s wisdom and shrewdness
  6. One example of this shrewdness was when Gorgo and the Spartan council received a tablet covered in wax, with no message written into the wax. The puzzled council wondered why Demaratus (sender of the tablet) would send a blank message, until Gorgo smartly realized the message must have been hidden. She instructed that the wax be removed, and so the message in the wood underneath the wax was revealed (Demaratus was a Greek exile in Susa trying desperately to get a message to the Greeks of the Persian invasion. Because of Gorgo’s deduction, the Spartans learned of the impending Persian attack, and made preparations, which included alerting other Greeks).
  7. Gorgo was frequently present as a counsellor with the rest of Leonidas’ advisors

Given that the current leader list for Age I includes deities, mythological figures, nonexistent figures, typographical errors, generals, and elected leaders who held relatively little sway over national polities of any kind, I think Gorgo as a suggestion makes complete sense. It’s not like she would (if included), be taking away a vital slot from any other Greek leader anyway. There’s plenty of room for more leaders on each civ’s leader list.

@Augustusman Wrong. Gorgo was among the most popular and influential women of her time. The fact that Herodotus even mentions her (and always in a good context) is testament to this.

Anyway, back on topic. For Minoan leaders, I think an excellent one is Tectamus, who was also a king of Crete and something of a hero in Greek mythology. So we can add him as a ninth leader name for the Minoans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tectamus

So i’ve done some research, this is what i managed to collect for the three asian civs:

Yamato: I think the original list is pretty consistent, only change Sei to Seimu

Shang: Tang, Wai Bing, Wo Ding, Tai Wu, Tai Geng, Wu Yi, Di Xin, Qin Shi Huang
(based on the Shang kings who ruled longer plus the obligatory presence of the first proper emperor of china, Qin)

Choson: Wiman Joseon, Dongmyeong, Jinheung, Hyeokgeose, Onjo, Geunchogo, Gogugyang, Gwanggaeto
(names chosen from the monarchs of the three korean kingdoms of Silla, Baekje and Goguryeo, plus the legendady founder of the bronze-age korean state and the first proper emperor of the country)

And @mythdracon : i just saw your issue regarding Mithridates, that bit just escaped me apparently the first time i read your comment! :no_mouth:
Anyway long story short i’m fully aware that Mithridates and the pontic royal family were anything but macedonian. In fact they had probably more persian blood in their veins, but the kingdom of Pontus was an hellenistic state ( which as we all know owned their existance to macedon ) and the political goal of the mithridatic dynasty was openly to create a fully integrated hellenistic empire in asia. I thought it made sense to add him given that was the only “greek” ruler alongside Cleopatra to give Rome some trouble in their conquest of the eastern mediterranean.

@mythdracon said:
@Augustusman Wrong. Gorgo was among the most popular and influential women of her time. The fact that Herodotus even mentions her (and always in a good context) is testament to this.

Who someone finds interesting is really a matter of opinion. @Augustusman isn’t wrong for his opinion, he just has a different one than yours.

@“Ginger Eyed” said:

@mythdracon said:
@Augustusman Wrong. Gorgo was among the most popular and influential women of her time. The fact that Herodotus even mentions her (and always in a good context) is testament to this.

Who someone finds interesting is really a matter of opinion. @Augustusman isn’t wrong for his opinion, he just has a different one than yours.

For me compared with all Greek and Hellenistic rulers, wasn’t important.

@“Ginger Eyed” Perhaps you didn’t read Augustusman’s post (the one I was reacting to). In it, he said

@Augustusman said:
I agree Gorgo wasn’t popular in her own time.

I disagreed, pointing out that there was no evidence she was not popular in her own time. In fact, on the contrary, Gorgo was one of the best known women of the period.

@Augustusman What about compared with Greek politicians, generals, etc? Again, the point is not whether she was an amazing ruler–rather, the point is whether putting her on an Age of Empires leader list (as one random option out of many) makes sense. I maintain that it does. We currently have a motley assorted bunch of deities, politicians, doctors, philosophers, advisors, princesses (Jezebel) and generals along with actual rulers (some of these rulers, like Nero, were awful, but they are on the list anyway.) So Gorgo is a step up from that relatively speaking.

Artemisia I of Caria was prominent.
You have rulers and general of all Greek states and you select Gorgo.

You don’t “select” Gorgo. Gorgo shows up. She can be one of several options. And as I pointed out earlier, the leaders lists currently include doctors, philosophers and other motley professions, so a powerful political advisor involved in three Spartan kings’ lives and who allowed Greece to understand the warning of the Persian invasion–certainly merits inclusion in my view. We can agree to disagree on this instead of just dragging this thread along with our repeated disagreement? And maybe you could make suggestions for other civs’ leaders?

Artemisia served the Persians, so that wouldn’t work. Maybe she could be a Persian option, but that’s not quite accurate either–since she was a Greek ally of the Persians.

The General who commands Sacred band of Thebes, that defeat Sparta…
Epaminondas General of Boetian league.


That was decisive battle.

That seems a good suggestion. But I think the Greek and Roman leader lists are mostly ok right now (not needing any replacements, just additions). What about the Assyrians, Persians, etc?

In a game where each civ doesn’t even have it’s own style with it’s own units - Who gives two rat tatas about a name… This just seems like you’ve gotten so bored you’re just looking for any reason to start a thread now.

It’s only for computer players anyway, people have the ability to call themselves whatever stupid name they want.

Also none of you are impressing me with your wiki-based research

@“Helios Ra” said:
In a game where each civ doesn’t even have it’s own style with it’s own units - Who gives two rat tatas about a name… This just seems like you’ve gotten so bored you’re just looking for any reason to start a thread now.

It’s only for computer players anyway, people have the ability to call themselves whatever stupid name they want.

Also none of you are impressing me with your wiki-based research

Stop talk trash.

@“Helios Ra” said:
In a game where each civ doesn’t even have it’s own style with it’s own units - Who gives two rat tatas about a name… This just seems like you’ve gotten so bored you’re just looking for any reason to start a thread now.

It’s only for computer players anyway, people have the ability to call themselves whatever stupid name they want.

Also none of you are impressing me with your wiki-based research

Look kid, if you don’t want to participate positively in this thread, don’t bother posting in it. Reported for inflammatory speech. This thread is for those that care about the ancient history that serves as the background for Age of Empires I. If you don’t want that flavor or care about it, fine for you. But don’t go around attacking others for their interest in history.

I should point out that numerous wikis with ancient history actually rely on well-accredited scholars and sources (they remain relatively untouched because people who simply want to trash others don’t bother modifying them.)

@mythdracon said:

@“Helios Ra” said:
In a game where each civ doesn’t even have it’s own style with it’s own units - Who gives two rat tatas about a name… This just seems like you’ve gotten so bored you’re just looking for any reason to start a thread now.

It’s only for computer players anyway, people have the ability to call themselves whatever stupid name they want.

Also none of you are impressing me with your wiki-based research

Look kid, if you don’t want to participate positively in this thread, don’t bother posting in it. Reported for inflammatory speech. This thread is for those that care about the ancient history that serves as the background for Age of Empires I. If you don’t want that flavor or care about it, fine for you. But don’t go around attacking others for their interest in history.

I should point out that numerous wikis with ancient history actually rely on well-accredited scholars and sources (they remain relatively untouched because people who simply want to trash others don’t bother modifying them.)

Ignore him, it’s only a guy, without properly manners. Trying to be tough , to impress anybody. Probably is sad because the game is very exclusive, or other may is other troll.

You know the people these days are this way on internet.

Agreed.

For Persia, I noticed Spitamenes was on that list, even though he was Sogdian, not Persian; I think he could be replaced by Bardiya or Artaxerxes.

Now other thing to have in consideration with Persians, add Sassanids rulers?

I suppose, though they are a bit later than the Achaemenid Empire which Age of Empires I seems to be focused on. I think the Roman and Greek rulers lists are mostly ok (Roman is good as is, even). Which lists do you think we should look at next?

@“Helios Ra” said:
In a game where each civ doesn’t even have it’s own style with it’s own units - Who gives two rat tatas about a name… This just seems like you’ve gotten so bored you’re just looking for any reason to start a thread now.

It’s only for computer players anyway, people have the ability to call themselves whatever stupid name they want.

Also none of you are impressing me with your wiki-based research
Why I need impress you?