AI Player lists (Historical Leaders)

So the DE designers have said they are correcting some of the erroneous stuff in the historical encyclopedia that comes with the game. This is nice, but I hope their attention to history also extends to the weird AI player name lists from the original. In case you are unaware of this, the leader names for each of the AI players that can pop up is chosen randomly (i.e. a Roman AI could be named “Nero” or “Trajan” in a random map, and the names are chosen randomly). These names are on a list (typically in the Age of Empires wiki)

Most of the names are fine, but some civs have egregiously bad name lists (Macedonia, Phoenicia, Palmyra, .

For example, Macedonia features a number of kings of Sicily or Syracuse, which to my knowledge are not Macedonian. http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Macedonians

**Also on that Macedonian AI leader list is HIPPOCRATES, a DOCTOR. What?! **Phoenicia also has a Phoenician author and two Roman philosophers on their list.

In the case of Macedonia, the DE designers should just amend the list to include Alexander (removing him from the Greek list and replacing his slot with Gorgo), and also include actual Macedonian kings, like Philip II, Demetrius, Lysimachus, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Macedonians

Assuming this hasn’t been done already, I guess a mod could implement these changes.

Yes, it will be interesting to see how the historical database is updated for both AoE and AoE II.

There are more interesting characters than Gorgo.

Are best choices than Gorgo.

@Augustusman said:
Are best choices than Gorgo.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Sparta

Yeah, I agree. Gorgo is interesting and could be included, but I’d prefer an expanded roster too.

Sure, but Gorgo is nice for a female option as she was the Spartan queen who basically took over after Leonidas lost his life (until the co-regency).

I think realistically each civ should have at least 8-10 leader names, with minimum 8 (and no philosophers, writers, or doctors leading the civ).

Completely agree. It should not be too hard to choose 8 names from ancient history for every civ, c’mon devs! You can do it!

In case you can’t, i have some propositions for the less represented civs:

Macedon: Perdiccas, Philip, Alexander, Antigonos, Seleukos, Demetrios, Pyrrhus, Mithridates
Carthage: Dido, Mago, Hasdrubal, Hamilcar, Hanno, Bomilcar, Adherbal, Hannibal
Palmyra: Yahdunlim, Zabdibel, Odaenathus, Maeonius, Zenobia, Zabbai, Zabdas, Vaballathus
Phoenicians: Zimredda, Ridaddi, Ethbaal, Ahiram, Pygmalion, Tennes, Eshmunazar, Tabnit

Mithridates–was he Macedonian? I don’t see that anywhere…I would replace him with Amyntas III, father of Philip II and creator of the unified Macedonian state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyntas_III_of_Macedon

Yahdunlim wasn’t a Palmyran, was he? Would recommend Hairan instead. I think Zabbai and Zabdas as Zenobia’s generals make good sense for other Palmyran leaders too, in addition to those listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palmyrene_monarchs#House_of_Odaenathus

Interestingly Phoenicia seems to abound with rulers and mayors who could serve as leaders, including Baal-Eser II, a king of Tyre (who could replace Jezebel, who is currently one of the leader names despite not having power over a Phoenician city).

The Shang leader list abounds with deities. I suggest replacing them with eight of the Shang kings from the list here (excluding Wo Ding since archaeological evidence shows he may not have been a king): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_China#Shang_dynasty

Minoans are hopeless, as we know of no real kings of Crete save perhaps the legendary/mythological King Minos. So I think the present mythological names for their leaders would have to do.

@mythdracon
Nope Yahdunlim was not strictly Palmyran, but is reported to be the first proper king of the city after he conquered it with his tribe; i thought it made sense to add him. Totally agree about the shang leaders.
It’s also important to remove Alexander from the greek list and add Ptolemy and Kababash to the egyptian one, i think.
Maybe they could incorporate some Myceneans into the Minoan list? After all they were ethnically closer to the old inhabitants of crete rather than to the Achean invaders ( to which it seems the game connects them ).

Also these three should not be included in the babylonian list:
Croesus - King of Lydia 560-547
Telepinus - King of the Hittites ca, 1460 BC
Astyages - Last king of the Median Empire 585-550 BC

The Myceneans are perhaps a good fit, yes, especially as not all the mythological figures used as Minoan player names were as such connected to the Minoans.

For Babylon, many names with hyphens abound here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Babylon

They should replace Nebuchad, Croesus, Telepinus and Astyages. Nebuchad is on the list in addition to Nebuchadnezzar, which is odd (they did something similar for Wiman and Wiman Choson both being Choson AI player names). I wonder if the original Age of Empires I lacked a lot of appropriate names due to the difficulty of using hyphens in the player names?

Nah i think they were just a bit lazy. I mean until RoR came out there were just TWO names for each civilization,which were used four times(ex. Cyrus,cyrus II,Cyrus III,Cyrus IV)!
However i do not blame them: they were creating a groundbreaking game and i’m sure there were more pressing issues.

Hippocrates leading Macedonia lol it’s little wonder they’d follow a doctor when they cannot build temples and therefore cannot heal :smiley:

I ran into the above issue when making a Lord of The Rings Mod for AOE, featuring Rohan, Gondor, Isengard, and Mordor.
Gondor and Rohan were easy.
Mordor’s and Isengard’s leader names were mostly Orc Generals. But it was also possible to get a nonsensical battle if you had multiple Isengards or Mordors.

for instance, “Eye of Sauron” vs. “Mouth of Sauron” vs. “White Wizard” vs. “Saruman” vs. “The White Hand”

Love this thread, keep up the historical discourse! AOE has my favorite “lore” of any game.

Some other revised lists :smiley: :

Babylon: Sumabum, Hammurabi, Ammisaduqa, Agum, Marduk, Nebuchadnezzar, Nabopolassar, Nabonidus
Minoan: Minos, Rhadamanthys, Sarpedon, Memnon, Priamus, Hector, Croesus, Lasthenes
Hittite: Huzziya, Labarna, Hattusili, Mursili, Suppiluliuma, Tudhalyas, Arnuwanda, Telepinu

Personally I would replace Alexander in the Greek list with Epaminondas, Aratus or Demosthenes.

I’m quite prepared about middle-eastern and european ancient history, but i definetly need some help about far-eastern civilizations :s

@sonictimm said:
I ran into the above issue when making a Lord of The Rings Mod for AOE, featuring Rohan, Gondor, Isengard, and Mordor.
Gondor and Rohan were easy.
Mordor’s and Isengard’s leader names were mostly Orc Generals. But it was also possible to get a nonsensical battle if you had multiple Isengards or Mordors.

for instance, “Eye of Sauron” vs. “Mouth of Sauron” vs. “White Wizard” vs. “Saruman” vs. “The White Hand”

Love this thread, keep up the historical discourse! AOE has my fvaorite “lore” of any game.

That kind of thing just makes it fun lol. If you are making a scenario, you can custom name the players. Otherwise, why would all these faction be fighting on a random map that’s not “canon”? :smile:

A Lord of the Rings mod for AOE sounds ambitious. I can see why the names might pose a problem there. :open_mouth:

@Totalste I would try to avoid using deity names in the AI player lists (like Marduk for Babylon)–let’s stick to kings and generals. :smiley: Unless, of course, you meant Marduk-apla-iddina I, and not Marduk? (Again one wonders if Age of Empires I struggled with hyphens in player names–it would explain a lot, though notably in Age II they had names with periods (like “Emp. Justinian”)).

Re: Minoan leaders, I think Lasthenes makes a good deal of sense as an actual historical figure (good job on the find). But Hector, Priamus and Croesus should probably not be there…I think Pasiphae would make more sense to stay on the list since she was closely connected to Minos. Same with Androgeous, son of Minos and Pasiphae.

Re the Far-Eastern civs, what they have currently is as follows:

Choson Tan’gun-Wanggom, Wiman Choson (should be removed since it was the name of the state, and it’s weird to think of both Wiman and Wiman Choson being in the game), Wiman, Chun, Ugo, Wigut’ae, Uiryo, Hyon, Suro (some of these are founders of other early Korean states)
Shang Wang Hei (nonexistent, or mistyped Hui Wang), T’ang, Hsuan - Xuan (A HYPHEN?!), Zhou Xin, Jie, Huang Di (mythical/legendary), Shen Nong (same), Fu Xi (same), Yoa (mispelled Yao, who is the same)
Yamato Nintoku, Sei (short for Seimu perhaps), Jimmu Tenno, Himiko (fitting and cool, a shaman queen), Shotoku Taishi, Kammu, Jingo, Keiko, Temmu (notably many early medieval leaders, since the Yamato are AoE I’s latest civ historically, and the new DE campaign reflects this, with history taken around Himiko, the Isshi incident, etc.)

I guess the Shang AI leader list suffers from too much mythology, and too few actual Chinese rulers, whether from Shang or otherwise (despite their being MANY Shang rulers).

Choson and Yamato suffer from having some leader names from states which were not Choson or Yamato, but unfortunately that will have to pass due to the shortage of leader names of Choson and Yamato (strictly speaking). But I think allowing Himiko as a Yamato leader and Suro as a Choson leader makes some sense…

I posted a long reply but the post hasn’t appeared yet (apparently editing a post twice means it “will be posted once it is approved”.

Anyway, here is my response to the above:

Love the idea of an LOTR mod, and I can definitely see how names could be a problem. Age I has a similar Saruman-naming-ish problem with the duplicate leader names (Wiman and Wiman Choson for example, where Wiman should be the leader IMO, but not Wiman Choson, which referred to the state itself, not its ruler).

@Totalste, love the list for Babylon except, Marduk was a god. I think we ought to stay away from suggesting deities for AI leaders, no? I also think the Minoan lists have too many Trojan leaders, and we might need more mythological names. Pasiphae would make sense, as Minos’ wife, for example, as would their progeny (or anyone related to Minos family-wise).

Re: the Asian civs, here is what the game has at present for their leaders:

Choson: http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Choson T’angun-Wanggom, Wiman Choson, Wiman, Chun, Ugo, Wigut’ae, Uiryo, Hyon, Suro (many of these are leaders of earlier Korean states that followed the Gojoseon–I would recommend replacing them with king names of the early Gojoseon rulers, i.e. the Gija Joseon (see list of Monarchs of Korea on the right). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gija_Joseon Potential kings from there include Yun, Suk, etc.

Shang: http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Shang Wang Hei (likely misspelled Hui Wang), T’ang, Hsuan-Xuan (AHA A HYPHEN), Zhou Xin, Jie, Huang Di, Shen Nong, Fu Xi, Yoa (too many deities like Shen Nong, should be replaced with rulers like Qin Shi Huangdi, etc)

Yamato: http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Yamato Nintoku, Sei (short for Seimu? Why not just name him Seimu?), Jimmu Tenno, Himiko, Shotoku Taishi, Kammu, Jingo, Keiko, Temmu (many later Japanese rulers, but this is forgiveable since the Yamato are Age I’s latest civ chronologically, and the new DE campaign takes place in later time, involving Himiko, the Isshi Incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isshi_Incident etc.

I posted a long reply but it hasn’t appeared yet (apparently editing a post means it “will be posted once it is approved”.

Anyway, here is my response to the above:

Love the idea of an LOTR mod, and I can definitely see how names could be a problem. Age I has a similar Saruman-naming-ish problem with the duplicate leader names (Wiman and Wiman Choson for example, where Wiman should be the leader IMO, but not Wiman Choson, which referred to the state itself, not its ruler).

@Totalste, love the list for Babylon except, Marduk was a god. I think we ought to stay away from suggesting deities for AI leaders, no? I also think the Minoan lists have too many Trojan leaders, and we might need more mythological names. Pasiphae would make sense, as Minos’ wife, for example, as would their progeny (or anyone related to Minos family-wise).

Re: the Asian civs, here is what the game has at present for their leaders:

Choson: http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Choson T’angun-Wanggom, Wiman Choson, Wiman, Chun, Ugo, Wigut’ae, Uiryo, Hyon, Suro (many of these are leaders of earlier Korean states that followed the Gojoseon–I would recommend replacing them with king names of the early Gojoseon rulers, i.e. the Gija Joseon (see list of Monarchs of Korea on the right). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gija_Joseon Potential kings from there include Yun, Suk, etc.

Shang: http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Shang Wang Hei (likely misspelled Hui Wang), T’ang, Hsuan-Xuan (AHA A HYPHEN), Zhou Xin, Jie, Huang Di, Shen Nong, Fu Xi, Yoa (too many deities like Shen Nong, should be replaced with rulers like Qin Shi Huangdi, etc)

Yamato: http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Yamato Nintoku, Sei (short for Seimu? Why not just name him Seimu?), Jimmu Tenno, Himiko, Shotoku Taishi, Kammu, Jingo, Keiko, Temmu (many later Japanese rulers, but this is forgiveable since the Yamato are Age I’s latest civ chronologically, and the new DE campaign takes place in later time, involving Himiko, the Isshi Incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isshi_Incident etc.

Ok, sorry for the double post, but here’s something I have spent some time on–fixing the Minoan leader list.

Right now what we have is:

  1. Minos
  2. Rhadamanthys
  3. Sarpedon
  4. Erythrus
  5. Gortys
  6. Aiakos
  7. Andeogeous
  8. Pasiphae
  9. Aeacus

We could do with:

  1. Minos
  2. Rhadamanthys
  3. Catreus (may have been ruler of the ancient Cretan city Katri)
  4. Lasthenes (from Totalste)
  5. Asterion (king of Crete)
  6. Deucalion (king of Crete)
  7. Idomeneus (king of Crete, features in Trojan War)
  8. Euxantius (son of Minos, also king of an island founded with half of Minos’ army. Euxantius apparently refused to share power over the Cretan kingdom with Minos’ six other sons)

Quite happy to have found so many (mythological) Cretan kings. I declare the Minoan leader list fixed!

Awaiting other contributions for other leader lists.

@mythdracon Very good new Minoan list!
For Marduk, you are right: it is indeed the name of a god but many babylonian kings apparently used it in their cerimonial name ( a thing like “chosen by Marduk” ) and thus i got confused. May i suggest Nabunassar instead? Apparently under his reign began a new astronomical era.