All useless team bonuses (from 1v1 perspective)

Or just make all civs have a team bonus good in team games and in 1v1 too

Only agree on the Spanish trade one. Trading with an enemys Market is somewhat really niche.

But all the others you have listed are pretty strong. Imp skirm for example is really strong in a potention trash war (only happens in 1v1s, so you could argue its not that helpful in a TG as in a 1v1, but you clearly have never played a vietnamese trash war).
Outposts are rarely seen, but adding more LOS is exactly why you build that building, so should be really fine.
Faster farms are strong since your vill will be working more time actually farming and less with reseeding.
More sigth on Galleys is also good: you can flee easier if your opponent outnumbers you (even before he sees you, you can flee). Or you can find enemys fishing ships faster, also pretty good.
Line of Sigth for Foot Archers is kinda debatable, since you would tend more on a scout rush with Magyars than on archers, but stilll: for an archer rush its helpful.
Persians already were explained and I really agree this one is great, I often go Persians over Franks, since the better standing vs Archers.
Docks: pretty cool to see a close enemys Dock faster (imagine Nomad), or also fish, so you dont have to search for fish with the first ship -> less eco idle time/ less micro needed
Military Buidings acting like Houses is also pretty cool: in late game as a beginner you often forget to add houses, but nevertheless have like 5 stables and 5 rangesā€¦ thats already 50 pop.

Well all in all your list does not make any sense to any player who plays MP, what I think you meant with 1v1ā€¦

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Team bonuses are not meant to be on the same level of the the standard civ bonuses, they are only meant to help some civs which would otherwise struggle in team games. Some of them could for sure use some help (like the inca one), but you are looking at them from the wrong perspective.

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None of them are useful/good in 1v1

Still having civs that benefit from their team bonuses and others not, is not a good thing in my perspective. There should be a general rule for all in equal

All those TB can be used in 1v1, maybe they arenā€™t strong, but can be used. I mean nothing prevents you to train genitours with berbers, or to use the +2 atk vs archers as persians.

The only exceptions are the portos and spanish TB, I agree that the former is weak (but useful in team game) but the later is strong.

This is like the persians civ that isnā€™t cavalry because they donā€™t have any bonus for they cav. What you are doing here is the same thing.

Just stay say straight away that you donā€™t like them, or that you think they are weak, not that they are useless because they have an use.

You just want to convey a different and strongher but false message, to give more credit to your argument.

However, some of this bonuses are flawed, so Iā€™ll throw in there some suggestions anyway, but please, donā€™t call them useless.

Just give make their enemies revealing starting position A TB and the IS a standard bonus.

Give +1/2/3 LoS to all buildings for dark/feudal/castle age.

Let also the millā€™s upgrades research faster, add another wood, stone and gold upgrades too if itā€™s too little.

I donā€™t have an idea for this one, but I think that it could be changed.

More LoS is always useful, it means taking less time to explore resources or scouts enemy vills and military. Itā€™s weak, but all those civs works perfectly fine.

LOL, itā€™s literally one of the best TB, itā€™s always useful and strong.

Again, very useful.

I donā€™t know what you have against this, itā€™s free attack, itā€™s always good.

Itā€™s useful on low elo games, when coordination is more difficult. So it shouldnā€™t be changed.

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Firstly some civs can get more value than a team bonus when others arenā€™t.

If you have full techs for them, they are late-game version of Skirms, population effective. Berbers have full techs for them.

Like Berbers, if you have full techs, why not? It effects your main unit. Vietnamese has nice tech and bonuses for them.

First two blacksmith upgrades against Archers, this is one of the best bonus if you have knights and enemy has archers. Persians has nice stable, it can be useful. It is much more useful than Frankish team bonus.

Itā€™s useful because team doesnā€™t scout same area for two times. In 1v1 you can see non-existing allies.

This is the one of the best team bonus, it saves wood, mouse click, villager building time and most importantly it saves space.

For other LOS bonuses: I hate adding LOS to ranged units because I think if my units can see I can shoot and they donā€™t shoot take some damage (worse micro). LOS bonuses usually situational. I personally expect one of the new civs will have a house LOS bonus or Camps (Mill, Lumber Camps and Mining Camps) LOS bonus.

What? Itā€™s a bonus like another, those are their unique units. Like the portos get feritoria. They get those units in 1v1 too, other civs donā€™t.

Also, viets IS actually have more HP, so they are unique.

And following the same principle condos too should be a bad TB.

I do agree that they are a bit weird as TB (not useless of courseā€¦), because itā€™s most likely that itā€™s that viets/berber player that will train them, not the ally.

They are also too situational, depending on what civ you get as allies.

Not really, isnā€™t uncommon at all that a group of xbows micro down a group of knights, the fight can go either way. So having something that tip the balance in your direction even by a bit always helps.

It also more than compensate for bonuses like the viets and Italians ones that give tankier xbows.

Yeah, but for free it give you the same stackable amount of atk than blast furnace gives you one age earlier.

So seeing enemy skirms or knights sooner when they still donā€™t see you and avoid them itā€™s a bad thing? OKā€¦

Yeah my friend i agree with some of your points, but when i say ā€œuselessā€ i donā€™t mean ofcourse they are completely useless, i mean they are too weak and almost useless, ofcourse you can use every bonus in the game but it is just not wothy at all.
Another thing i want to know how the Spanish, Ports are very useful as you said?! And about the LOS of the other civs they are not worthy at all especially for the ranged units which they are already have range and can see around them very well.

But berbers and vns already have those units so this TB is useless for them and removing it will not remove these units from their tech tree. Ports TB is completely useless 1v1 and i still on my opinion that their cavs donā€™t have anything worthy to make them unique

A bonus that are so weak and rare is atheism, because despite having an effect, itā€™s never used (I know that itā€™s an UT technically, but the concept is the same).

But all the bonus that you listed are actually good and do have a use. Now I would like some of them changed, like berbers and viets ones, but that doesnā€™t mean that I can say that are useless, they situational and weird, but they are actually more useful in 1v1 than team games (because you knowā€¦ goldā€¦).

Spanish team bonus is the only reason why itā€™s one of most picked civ in TG. Slavs and persians help their civs so much and the fact that they share it with allies is even better.

By the, following your reasoning, Iā€™m surprised that you didnā€™t include franks or italians TB, which are very similar to some other that you did include.

I mean most of team bonus are weak, both in TG and 1v1. Donā€™t tell me that mayans cheaper walls are a strong bonus for 1v1, especially after walling meta was nerfed. Or that you always use bizzantines faster healing.

Iā€™m not saying that some of them could be improved, but they arenā€™t useless that need to be completely replaced.

I canā€™t think more useful bonus than a unique-ish unit. When Berber player allies Turks, Turks will have 90/95 HP skirms (castle/Imp). Imperial Skirmisher gives +1 attack, can be useful.

What you suggest put instead of them?

Portuguese Cavaliers or Stable? Feitorias has high food generation rate, Hussar spam maybe could be insane or Paladin Spam.

They are Naval and Gunpowder civ, you have to use your Archery Range a lot and Barracks to support them. Siege is also supportive.

No, those units are the team bonus. Without that bonus Berbers would not have genitours. You might just as well say that Aztec relics already generate gold faster, so sharing that bonus with the team is absolutely worthless in 1v1!

But i am talking from 1v1 perspective. About your question that refer to Franks bonus for example:, will i find the non-ranged unit is good to have a LOS especially like the Mongols scout, but when you give a LOS to ranged unit this is completely a big joke and no need for it at all. Other LOS things like outpost, docksā€¦are just like troll/meme more than a bonus and the Spanish and potuguese are the worst

No as i said the TB have these things because your civ have it already so they just share it. If removing the civ tean bonus will remove the bonus from the civ itself, then this is the stupidest thing i have ever heard about it. And lets assume the devs will fix/remove it, are u telling me that they will remove it from the tech tree for their owner civ?! This is ridiculous man

I agree that giving more LoS on outpost isnā€™t a big deal, I also suggested how to impro it. But on dock is actually useful, it means better protection from raids and finding more fish, meaning that is less likely that your fishing ships go idle.

So having more LoS on your xbows or CA that allows you to see sooner other enemy units with big LoS that also counter your archers (like skirms and managnels).

But there isnā€™t only 1v1, and even so, the only 2 civs that are in this condition need other changes, not to the their TB.

I mean, if a civ is good in 1v1, even with a really useless bonus (not like most of the ones that you listed) why change it? You will inevitably buff it and break its balance meaning itā€™ll alternate between being OP and weak just because they need to use their TB in 1v1 too.

Look at portos, they were weak, but not because of their TB, but because they had a weak bonus (gold discount) and useless standard bonus (the feritoria).

But by that measure all team bonuses are useless in 1v1.

Yes, thatā€™s what your saying here. Your saying that Aztec relics always collect gold faster, thatā€™s a regular bonus. They just share that bonus with their team, since they have it anyway, thatā€™s the team bonus. So the team bonus is useless in 1v1.

Making it so that only Berbers can make genitours is not removing the team bonus, thatā€™s changing it from a team bonus to a regular civ bonus. Same for Vietnamese, same for Italians.And whether these bonuses should be a regular bonus (like the Imperial Camel Rider) or a team bonus is a very interesting debate, but itā€™s entirely academic in 1v1ā€™s. The team bonus is the unit.

Let me stress @Exradicatorā€™s point:

Not all team bonuses should be equal.

Ideally youā€™d design the civs as (balanced) 1v1 civs, and then pick some aspect of the civ and teamify it, in such a way that you end up with balance in team games.
(With teamifying I mean to apply a bonus to all team members as well as the original civ.)

As an example, letā€™s pretend Mayans and Incas are balanced in 1v1s. Without team bonus, Mayans are clearly stronger in team games. So Mayans should have a weaker team bonus than Incas. One balanced way to assign team bonuses might be:

  • Mayans: no team bonus
  • Incas: everyone 1 free lama

Another way to assign balanced team bonuses might be

  • Mayans: all palisades and stone walls 50% cheaper
  • Incas: all stone walls, towers, castles, TCs cost 10% less stone

Both of these would leave 1v1 gameplay unchanged, itā€™s only changing what bonus the teammates get.

And of course not only Incas and Mayans should be balanced, but all civs should be.

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All I learned from reading this is that Equalizer938341 is wrong about a lot of things, including that the Persian team bonus is useless :smiley:

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Nobody is saying that the incas TB donā€™t need a rework, but the argument cannot be that the TB is useless 1v1, because a TB have the same effect in 1v1 and in TG.

Now letā€™s suppose for a moment that all TB are good but the incasā€™ one. In 1v1, the Inca should (and itā€™s a big should, because a civ may be good despite the TB) should be in a disadvantage. But the same happens in 1v1, because then you would have a team with 4 TB and a team with 3 TB and a useless fourth.

So itā€™s the topic itself that itā€™s a problem, some TB are better in TG or in 1v1, but that is the same for units (BE and paladins are rarely seen in 1v1, should we then ask for them to be cheaper?).

There are only 2 TB that are useless in 1v1, and thatā€™s because they affect TG meccanics. I suppose then that no bonus can affect such meccanics then? We canā€™t have a bonus for trade, or for shared line of sight? Those are prohibited meccanics to affect.

TB like any other bonuses or tech or unit have situations were they are strongher and more useful, and other when they are almost useless.

The next thing what will be, to ban any water bonus? Because they are useless in Arabia and pure land maps, or to give to any civ a water bonus?