So we started this random team game map, as soon as we start the game Cat With Salami warned us that both Willow Stick and Doggiemay were exploiting the ladder and, after that, prompted resigned.
I totally understand when you create a new acc to play with a friend or even creating a new acc to pratice new strats. But this one match they are clearly exploiting the new system.
When will the devs start to do something about it? We need a very heavy ban hammer on those exploiters.
After a year they tried to fix this issue. They didnt even fix it fully, since we still have a mess on the TG ladder as result of the past. But the adjusted calculation is also exploitable, like you show with your post. It is already well known in this community that you can exploit the TG ladder using this method.
Since they really needed about a year to try to solve the first issue, i have no real hope on a quick fix for the new calculation. Just to show some (reasonable easy fixes:
For premades pick the highest elo and use that elo for matching purposes and for the average elo in the elo update formules. This will mean Doggiemay will count as 3.5k player and this duo would teamed up with and against other 3.5k player.
The maximum elo between premades might not be larger then 500 elo (500 is an example). If the difference is bigger, then the lowest eloâs will be raise, so they meet the criteria. With this newly fictive elo for just this match the elo updates are calculated and matches are made. That means Doggiemay will count as 2945 elo in this game. So both will still get match against much better players, and they cant really boost the main account elo any more.
This is almost the same as (2), but now you are just limited to 500 elo difference. if the difference is larger, then you just cant team up any more.
There are some people suggestion some Log-scale average calculation. This option will kind of have the same kind of results of (2), but for most players this calculation is harder to understand.
There might be even more solution, which i cant think of.
Most of these solution looks like they are easy to implement and will at least fix this issue. But in the end i do expect a fresh start of the TG ladder, since the devs still have to clean up their mess of the past. I dont really see another option then just a full reset.
These âsolutionsâ sound terrible for anybody not abusing the system but just wants to play with friends with large elo differences.
I rather keep the exploit than these âfixesâ that have built in unfair matchmaking.
Instead keep the current system but do this postfix:
Take the current values of elo changes players would gain with the current system and sun them up per team.
Now redistribute the elo gains/loses by multiplying with
New player elo gain = (team elo - player elo) / team elo * old total team elo gain
for the winning team and by multiplying with
New player elo loss = (player elo/ team elo) * old total team elo loss
for the losing team
The total elo gains and losses per team stay same and system stays a null sum as it should.
For the winning team the low elo players gain more elo than the high elo teammember
For the losing team the low elo player loses less elo than the high elo player.
This has a normalizing effect on the team.
You can still try to team with low elo players but the high elo player will also gain only little elo on ein and loses a lot more on loss.
It this the perfects solution? Propably not, but it might be an improvement
The current system keeps elo gaps beetwen teammates the same, my system would welfare transfer the elo from high to low teammember over time. This will infalte/deflate the low/high elo players to their true mean elo over time in theory. Which is problematic in itself but a good thing for stable teams that always play together since they get fairer matches.
The older system wasnt perfect, but it was working much better than this one now.
I totally disagree. If they paired up before the last update the 34++ player would not gain any points from this match and the low elo one would gain a few hundreds. The whole problem now revolve around the fact that the higher elo player is gaining the same amount of points that he would gain playing against people of his/her elo. This did not occur before.
Now more people at higher ratings are effected, thatâs true.
But rank reverse boosting and smurfing in tg was a thing from day one.
As long as you can do that, or buy a game key for 3usd, this will not change.
Nice joke, the old system was terrible. You reached high elo by just playing frequently, since you almost didnt loose any points for any loss. Team balance was pretty much bad for that reason. I am glad they at least change something. It is still not perfect, but it is already a lot better.
In general you can discuss the question how a 2v2 between a 1k and 2k player vs 2 1.5k player will turn out. If the 1k+2k player win, is that mainly due to the 2k player carried the team or is it because the 1k player managed to hold on for a long enough time, to give the 2k player the change to excel. You can make the same kind of argument for losing.
And then we can ask the same question if all players have 1k more rating. Will we still have the same answers to the questions? Or do the situation change⊠A 2k player might can take on 2 1.5 players with some distraction of the 1k player. But is that still the case if it is a 2.5k player, that have to face 2 2k players, while being helped by a 1.5k player?
Good ratings for teams with big gaps between the elo of different players are a challenge no matter what rating system you will use. It will be a real challenge no matter what your solution will be.
WHy would you play with âfriendsâ RANKED games where the skilldifference is so huge? What kind of game do you expect to get? If you want to play with ur friend so badly you can still create custom games.
There are only 2 kind of games you can expect to get in ranked games with that difference:
The opponents are too tough for the lower player, so he fully relies on his premade.
The opponents are around the same level as the lower player, so the higher player will just fully stomp these guys.
WOW awesome game experience for all the players.
There is a reason many games have that kind of limit where you can not play with sb who is that much lower than you are.
I totally like the suggestions from WoodsierCorn. There should be a reset of teamgameelo first tho. The damage which has been done with the new system is even worse than the old.
Iâve faced now 3 or 4 times vivi (123456) as well in teamgames with lower accounts. The last game my team also pretty much gave up fron the beginning and i canât even blame them for that.
As 3.5k player you should get 0 Points for winning the match from the first post.
But people get annoyed, if they carry hard and donât get any points.
The problem is that the matchmaking doesnât generate close matches (good games) often.
That is because the matchmaking algorithm isnât the best, but also because so many players are not legit.
With not legit I mean that they are not rated according to their skill (for example they reverse boost, or they smurf).
If there is a player on an account 1000 points below his actual rating, what do you think is going to happen with the match?
Both things need to be addressed, the matchmaking algorithm and the legitimacy of the players.
Abuse is possible right now because the old system allowed for an insane elo inflation. Without this inflation, there wouldnât be 3,4k accounts at all in the first place
Because lobbies are slower and there isnt competition to average or above-average players. Its mostly new players and wacky maps / settings. You cant fix the server after creating the lobby to be reasonable for all players. You dont see their latencies to the server you selected. Players quit unranked games minute 2 if anything goes wrong. You cant filter lobbies by 1v1 Elo.
Right now there are 64 lobbies open according to aoe2.net and I found 2 lobbies with average Elo and âregularâ settings. In game I cannot see as many lobbies though.
Game 1 has 2x Unranked (no 1v1 games) played, and others ranging from 1200 to 1500 Elo.
Game 2 ranges from 967 to 1406.
All others are either âNOOBS ONLYâ or Forest Nothing, CBA, etc.
This sort of abuse would still happen. If Elo was normalized & comparable to the 1v1 rating⊠Imagine a pair of 1600 1v1 players. One hops into a smurf account. 1k Elo. 1600+1000 will face 2x 1300. Easy win. When the 1600 got to 1800, smurf would be at 1200, so on average they would still be facing 1500 Elo players⊠Smurf can tank down to 800 to compensate (resign minute 1 for 20 games in a row) and both can continue to face 1300 players afterward. After another 15-20 games later the non-smurf account would be reaching 2k Elo.
They should buff the units for low elo players. Then there can be a fair fight even when a low elo player fights a high elo player. And both players will have fun.
We are not talking about the above average player. We are talking about the lower player. He is a ânoobâ so it makes more sense for him to play these kind of games, or you play quickplay and if these modes have technical issues then the devs should prioritize fixing thatâŠbut yeah they only care about aoe 4 anyway atm i guess.
Iâve also got friends who started this game a short while ago. I did not hop into ranked queue instandly with them, because it is pointless. If you are that much better than your friend you should spectate his games and give him tips or play vs AI until you are around the same level. He wonât get better if he either gets stomped every game or spectates how you stomp every game.
I mean you donât have to be at the exact same level but at least close. More than 1k elo difference is nonsense and the matchmaking canât handle it. I would even support the suggestion with max 500 elo difference, which is still a lot.
They also should start punish people who smurf that obvious. I mean how do you even get 446 teamelo? By starting 30 games and leaving every game in second 1? This should be banworthyâŠif a 446 player has a decent buildorder itâs already proof that he is smurfingâŠbut guess the devâs also donât care about that.
I do not like banning people to team up with a player with very different Elo. You may think it is not fun anyway for a noob and a solid player to team up, but some people will disagree, and your approach gives these people a clear incentive to smurf. (âAllright, I canât win my next game or else I cannot play with my friend tomorrow!â) It makes much more sense to tackle this in the matchmaking system itself instead of saying âWe are incapable of making a fair match in this case, so you just cannot play in this case.â.
There is no need to punish such behavior, they are just kidos mentally, instead what the devs needed to do right after the fixed point distribution was to reset the TG ladder, by resetting the ladder there wont be silly 3.5k players, so it would take forever to reach to those elos, also they should implement the same elo limitation or roof that the 1x1 ladder has, if you donât know what i am talking about in 1x1 above 2200 you start gaining less and less elo the higher you get to a point that hera and viper were trading 6 points in their 1x1, if they add the same roof, there wont be +1k elo difference btw ladders.
