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Wtf!! That’s lower than Khmer im HD.

I doubt this. Castle Age Paladin is OP for sure but not Hussar. The advantage of Hussar over Light Cavalry is +15 HP and Burgandians miss Bloodlines.


I have thought of some buffs. Some of these ideas are mine and some are not. I do not claim the “ownership”.


Civ bonuses:
Economy upgrades, Cavalier, two handed swordsmen and Hussar available one age earlier than normal
Stable techs cost -33% in resources and time (the latter doesn’t apply to Paladin upgrade)
Economy upgrades 20% cheaper
Farmers generate trickle of gold

Unique techs:
Flemish Revolution: Male villagers upgraded to Flemish Militia (stats decreased in Castle age)
Burgandian Cannons: Gunpowder units +25% attack

Even though the production of male and female villagers is random, it is still better than actually randomising at 50%. You will actually send your villagers forward or to a specific place depending on gender and preserve it.

Flemish revolution in Castle Age is a bit off, but the gunpowder bonus has to be in Imperial age because it is useless before it.


Civ bonuses:
Farms provide +50F per age
Land units (except siege weapons) resist 40% bonus danage starting in Feudal Age
Have access to Donjons starting in Feudal Age
Castles and TCs built 100% faster*

*TCs after the first TC

Unique techs:
Scutage: slight gold generation depending on resource 40 (number of present military units)
Crusade: Knights and Cavaliers +1/+1 armor

Team bonus: affects Trade Cogs too

Tech tree change: Entire Watch Tower line added, so that Donjon is an extra, not a replacement

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Maybe, but ay least neither teutones or malians have both melee and Pierce armor at the same time.

Also with +30 civ is hard to not have some overlaps… bulgarians have a tech that give extra armor to their militia similar to teuton bonus, and that is one of many.

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This is a gigantic nerf to the civ.


How is that a nerf? It’s generally a buff. Farms having more food earlier on, donjons cheaper + more hp, serjeants cheaper… Where’s the nerf?

I have also a idea about donjons, as the civ is clearly designed around using them as garrisoning platforms:
How about them healing garrisoned units 3 x as fast (and in total 8 x as fast with herbal medicine) as towers? This would open up the unique play around the donjons without them being to close to be just a modification of the standard tower rush.

The site still almost useless for team games because it only allows 1650+

Why not add bracket of like 2200+ or at least 2000+

Unless you start farming in dark age, you’re basically just taking a 40% cut on the farm bonus. Farming in dark age tends to make sense only if you get lamed, or if you are getting some weird gen on megarandom.

Having a tower that can’t even fire an arrow on its own seems pretty bad, 125W in feudal is a lot, almost as much as it costs to get one of your buildings to age up, so it means you’ll only ever build a donjon in Feudal in case of emergency.

I’d rather not get the unit discount if I lose these bonuses. Being able to take out buildings relatively quickly is one of the nice things about the unit right now.

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??? only the crop rotation farms provide a bit less (880 instead of 925), but all other farms would provide more food, not only dark age farms (castle age still 600 instead of 575). It’s clearly a overall buff and sic farms with horsecolar would have more food than standard castle age farms (400).
It’'s clearly a buff overall.

I’m against seeing donjon seen as a standard tower. It’s just one more thing to differntiate them. And tbh towers have quite low dps.

They aren’t good raising units. They are not terrible vs buildings, but sicilians have fu champs to do that job. 10 food less means you can field like 10 % more of them.
I want the serjeant to be differentiated from the champ. Sicilians have fu champ, there should be situatios to chose champs over the serjeant. The 10 F discount makes serjeants an overall better unit. It’s generally a buff.
But it’s a slight nerf to first crusade as it makes it less abnoxious to deal with it, as the serjants don’t melt through the base as fast. And this is intentional.

Ah ok, I misunderstood. I thought you meant that +60% on upgrades. Then yeah, in that case it’s just a minor nerf :slight_smile: - but still don’t like it

But not even firing arrows seems like an odd choice, it’s been a useful defensive building in many games, and its lack would be quite a sting. What would be the reasoning to remove this? The only change I’d make to donjons is to make them slightly cheaper on stone, because 200 stone is really a lot for what it gives.

They’re pretty good raiding units. They have a good base pierce armor, so TC fire is not threatening to them, and if player doesn’t research masonry, even taking out castles is an option for them if the army doesn’t come home to defend. The 10F discount with the tradeoff that they’ll be a less effective raider is not worth it for me.

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and still an incredibly weak economy bonus, farm bonuses tend to be on the weaker end overall, unless it actually impacts how fast they gather from farms. look at Teutons and Franks as good examples of this.

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Because the donjon rush is so different as the serjeants counter many anti-tower rush strategies so well. So taking away the arrows solves the problem of the possible op donjon rush if you fail to stop it early. That allows to make donjons in general cheaper, at least in terms of stone and give it more hp to protect the garrisoned units even better.

But it can’t really be less with firing arrows atm, because you need to stop a donjon rush early atm, you can’t stop it at later stages of the game. That’s why they needed to make it that stone intensive.

Agree with that, but a raiding unit don’t need to be able to raise aswell. They are still a very good raiding unit without that bonus dmg vs buildings, as they are able to idle the eco so effectively. (Take almost no dmg from tc fire)

Sicilians have already one of the best booms in the game. I don’t want to overbuff them, so I chose a buff only shifting the eco bonus a bit more into the early game. Idk if it’s enough, but I also wanted to leave some space for a possible imrovement to their cav if this isn’t quite enough yet. Just a slight early game buff to allow them to make use of their other bonusses, as the early game is clearly their greatest weakness.

donjon rush in feudal is suicide. donjons are very vulnerable to getting rushed down due to their larger base size. You can try to pop out a few serjeants, but it’s super all in, and still not very strong. In my experience, the best use of a donjon is just as a forward base for quick reinforcements, once you’re in Castle or later.

They’re pretty expensive on gold for just a unit to use as idling an eco. The fact that they can take out buildings is their only positive aspect.

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They get +2/+3 anti building damage… it’s really not much.

and then arson on top of it, and throw in their cheap cost gold wise. yeah. it adds up. even champions only have +4 (baseline) and people talk about how good vs buildings they are. and serjeants have tons better survival from arrow fire.


One good sign is, that despite their very low winrate overall, the burgundians still seem to have some matchups in their favour, that wasn’t the case with Khmer, iirc

This is this kind of results that makes it I won’t believe these damn charts. Late game is literally the moment their bonus damage reduction matters the least, while their tech tree is at their weakest. This makes no sense.

Well, there have been other people who made statistics that did include intervals, but everyone went ahead and ignored them since it made crying about Frank/Mayan so much easier.

IN trash wars sicilans are quite good, besides they get only FU halbs. The farm bonus helps all trash a bit and a hug chunk of trash damage vs other trash is actually bonus damage. So sicilians definetley profit in trash wars. Don’t think they are top-tier trash civ, but definetely better than average.

Having bonus dmg resistant light cav is quite nice in the lategame as they are actually better for raiding than normal hussars. I can totally understand them being at least an average lategame civ.

Add to this the one-time usage of first crusade and scutage, they get two powerspikes to work with.

actually thats not fully true, the CI even further proofed tat Franks are super above all others. One of the few cis with the hole CI above 50%. maybe i missunderstood you but doesnt this make bitching about them even easier using CI instead of ingoring them

Yup, this is exactly a good summary. It is basically their selling point. As for being able to do well against Trash, well that is certainly nice too, but not 35g a piece kind of nice in itself. :slight_smile: Sicilians don’t have a very strong late-game tech tree, so the raiding potential offered by the Serjeants is pretty much the main way you can keep yourself in the game.