Do all civs have an answer to the Berbers’ Camel + Genitour combo?
You can’t use your knights or camels to take on Genitours because of the discounted Berber camels.
You can’t use archers or pikes to take on camels because Genitours counter both.
You can’t even use generic Long Swordsmen because Genitours can kite them.
Even pike-siege is a questionable counter, since the Berbers can mix in a few cheap knights to suicide on the siege, then take out all the pikes with Genitours cost-effectively. Plus, they’ll have the mobility advantage, so the trade will favor them.
Do you mean that the unit itself is OP, or that the Berbers are OP? Because according to the stats, the Berbers don’t really shine in terms of winrate (regardless of the map or the Elo).
Regarding your question, combos of two units coming from two different tech paths are hard to achieve, especially in 1v1. You need to find the opponent’s weak timings.
Do all civs have an answer to the Berbers’ Camel + Genitour combo?
Tbh, I think most compositions have some civs that don’t have decent answers against them. It’s just a downside of how aoe2 civs are designed, having gaping holes in their tech trees. As for camel + genitour, I tihnk long swordsmen are actually decent against it, even though genitours can kite, because they’ll only do 1 damage (except in imp, then they’ll deal 2, but that’s still not very much). I also think pike-siege could work if you are good enough at protecting the siege. That said, I don’t see this combo played very often so I don’t know for sure
Not every civ is supposed to have a counter to every composition
Full camels should work most of the time against Berber’s camel + genitours, because:
a) Berbers have no real eco bonus and no military bonus besides discount, which is compensated by opponent bonus (Byzantines discount, Tatar/Hindustanis/Gurjaras/Persians/Malians eco, Saracens/Hindustanis/Gurjara camel bonus)
b) Genitours is wasted resources in the fight.
knights + xbows should work despite being very gold intensive.
pike scorpions should work as well. If the Berber sacrifices knight to kill siege, it is not necessarily s bad trade, it depends on the losses.
Yes, I think Genitours are an overpowered unit. But it should hopefully be balanced in SP (before super late imp) by Berbers bad eco, and in MP by the fact that a good gold composion should still win.
I think if you do not invest in skirmisher line in feudal, it is worthwile to make Genitours instead of skirmishers. But Berber players make Elite skirmishers more often than Genitours. Genitours is overshadowed instead of overpowered imo due to elite skirmishers and camel archers.
I wonder if there is a specific civ in mind with this thesis. I mean jokes aside Turks are probably well adapted to throw their own camels and/or some gunpowder at the problem.
The problem with Genitours is they are wet noodles unless you have a spear/archer combo going
They have feel overpowered in the extremely late team games. Giving your entire team fast moving skirmishers that can also raid is really op in trash war scenarios, sending them into your opponent’s trade. They have completely turned around games for me being able to comeback despite the team being behind in score for the entire game.
Not to mention the cool synergies, most importantly Turkish FU genitours with +20 hp
Camel Genitour probably isnt op. We would see more skirms and genitours with camel in team games instead of spamming power units if it were.
Fully generic camels don’t work. Berbers counter them with their discounted camels. Pikes get kited by Genitours.
Generic Long Swordsmen also lose to Camel Riders in a 1v1. And Berber camels are only 28 resources more expensive than a Long Swordsman, plus you also have to pay for the Man-at-Arms and Long Swordsman upgrades. Due to pathing, the Camel + Genitour combo easily takes on pure Long Swords, especially if they lack Gambesons.
Next time, I’ll go with Siege tower + Long Swordsman
I don’t think knight + pike will work, if you don’t want to get eaten by camels, you can only chase at the speed of pikemen, which mens the genitours can free kill them
Almost every knight civ has a counter to camels. Also, your point is that the Genitors are OP but you brought up their camels. An OP unit needs to be OP by itself. If you need a unit comp to make it OP then chances are it’s just another unit for a unit comp. If what you say were the case then knight skirmisher is OP since skirmishers counter pikes and archers while knights counter whatever else.
Also your definitely poking at the right civ for having an OP unit, the Camel Archer is busted. You get a mass of 60 camel archers and there’s a very good chance you’re winning the game. They can survive on their own as well unlike the Genitour which absolutely needs support to be any good.
I think the point you’re missing is how much food the Berber Camels + Genitour army costs. Trying to 3 TC boom while massing this food-heavy army will almost definitely put you behind economically, unless your opponent’s macro sucks.
Almost every civ has an extremely strong potential army composition; Berbers do not stand out in that regard at all. Yes, in late game trash wars, Genitour are good for raiding, but so are Hussar. And like someone already said, Genitour on their own can’t be OP because they fully rely on camels or other defensive units to protect them. Most civs can hold their own vs. Camels + Genitour:
Camel civs: Camel + pike/halb
Meso civs: Eagles + pike/halb
Other civs: Cavalier + pike/halb, Scorpions + pike/halb + monks, forward castle push on hills then camp with trebs and force the fights under your castles, skirms + pike/halb + rams
You actually CAN use generic long swordsmen. Pikes do more damage to camels, but also die easily to skirm types. Just make a comp to focus longswords into siege. Last I checked, any civ has either scorpions or mangonels up to the task.