Are knights balanced?

[Schizhao]

I saw a reddit post that suggested making the Phalanx(abbasid upgrade) the default range of all spearmen as he stated that despite having an advantage against knights. Despite being a counter, spearmen with xbows still lose to them in a knight+archer comp.

I find this problem to be bigger in team games, which I usually play and some comments mentioned that knights being the default unit throughout the entirity game is guaranteed due to the map size, which I also agree with. However, I find this to be part of the problem as knight civs with acess to Ribauldequin(looking at you France) are too overpowered as Ribauldequin+Knights will make short work of any melee units.

There was a team game where I used China and made a spear+xbow comp to defend our side and fought an attacking knight+archer comp(1v1). Despite having numerical advantage, I lost my army and he snowballed to my base.

One thing I noticed figthing them was that I seemed to be in a major disadvantage as my civ didnt have an anti-knight unit (besides spear and xbows) and I had to rely on my eco to continuously pump out spears and xbows to buy time for my ally to beat their base. The out-eco and out-knight them argument seems like a sidestep to the issue instead of adressing it. I’m curious to know what the people here think.

[SamuelWallace17]

It is Time to Consider Add Anti-Cavalry Univeral Unit to Every Civ to Deal Knight Spam in Late Game

I believe what we need is to add sort of Advance Anti-Cavalry Unit to Every Civ, available in barrack after age4, which is very professional to kill cavalry, but very vulnerable when facing range attacks. This unit may not very powerful, even not frequently used in each game, for its high cost, but, we do need it for an univeral unit. As you know, not every civ have Ribauldequin, Janissary or Camel. And spearmen are very weak in late game. That means not every civ have method to fight against k…

I actually brought this up in another topic. I believe the root cause is that Spearmen and Crossbowmen, as counter-units to Knights, cost too few resources for the same population. This prevents players from massing forces effectively, leaving them constantly whittled down by Knights.

I believe the fundamental solution is to introduce a somewhat expensive, highly effective, yet hard-countered generalist anti-cavalry unit with a lower cost-efficiency, like the standard Janissary.

You can check out the discussion over there for more details.

[Schizhao]

Its my personal opinion, but I think an anti cavalry unit for every civ will downgrade existing cavalry civs (French, Mongols, etc) as it is their identity. An alternative, I think, to your suggestion is a seige unit that is anti-melee or cavalry, similar to Ribauldequin, but has a bonus damage to cavs because as of right now. When I use Chinese or HRE, there is technically no cavalry counters besides out eco your enemy and swarm them with units.

[SamuelWallace17]

@Schizhao

I think an anti cavalry unit for every civ will downgrade existing cavalry civs (French, Mongols, etc) as it is their identity

If it’s considered oppressive for the French to be unable to use Knights, then is it really fair that the Chinese can’t use Palace Guards and Zhuge Nu against Knights, and are forced to rely on standard Spearmen and Crossbowmen?

Ultimately, this is a balancing issue. I still believe that as long as the new anti-cavalry unit is expensive enough, it won’t break the balance. Its purpose shouldn’t be to make Knights unviable, but rather to force Knight players to incorporate other units and fight with a mixed army composition.

Looking at the current meta, especially on large maps in Team Games, Knights are treated way too well. They roam around freely, enjoying complete map control and the freedom to strike and retreat at will. Meanwhile, infantry players are left exhausted just trying to cope, until they finally get their own Knights. This is clearly not a complete rock-paper-scissors counter system.

[GoldenArmorX]

@SamuelWallace17

Looking at the current meta, especially on large maps in Team Games, Knights are treated way too well. They roam around freely, enjoying complete map control and the freedom to strike and retreat at will. Meanwhile, infantry players are left exhausted just trying to cope, until they finally get their own Knights. This is clearly not a complete rock-paper-scissors counter system.

I agree, some new anti-cavalry unit wouldn’t be bad, if it’s only for Infantry Civils, which in theory shouldn’t have powerful or easily mass-produced cavalry (Right, “Japanese”???).

At least I think that if you’re not a cavalry civilization, infantry civilizations deserve at least one powerful anti-cavalry unit in the Imperial Age (IV) for the late game, or an exceptional Crossbowman specifically designed to defeat these types of units.

• The first civilization to have something this great was the Templars, with the Heavy Spearman (III) and the Teutonic Knights (IV).

• The Jin Dynasty brought the Zanma Swordman (IV), a super-anti-cavalry unit for the late game.

• Now they’re coming to the Scots, who in theory should have the Shiltron Pikeman instead of a Spearman.

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So, Pikemen in AoE4

That is, pikemen are coming, but real ones, not the spearmen we’re used to… at least, if the scottish Pikeman is well done.

I had some ideas for pikemen because there are many civilizations that, in theory, will have them if they keep releasing new ones:

Base Pikeman.- Similar stats to the Spearman, but with more range, making them ideal in groups. They can’t attack at close range, which makes them vulnerable if they’re alone. More wood cost than food.

HP: 70/90/110/140, Atk: 7/8/9/11, Speed: 1.25, Range: 1.25. Base Cost: 50f 40w

• 1. Burgundy.- With a standard pikeman. In fact, along with Scotland, it was one of the few places where pikemen still existed. Besides their range, they never developed special formations, and that was actually the reason why better-organized pikemen like the Swiss defeated them.

• 2.- Scottish Pikeman.- With normal pikemen, but they have the Schiltron Formation ability. The speed penalty is the most severe of all pikemen. They cannot attack at very close range.
  – Schiltron Formation (-Movement -80%, +Attack Speed ​​+50%)

• 3.- Swiss.- Technically the best pikemen until the Landsknecht and the Spanish Tercio came along. Available from Age 1 (I), and they get stronger with each passing age.
  – Pike Formation ability (-Movement -50%, +Attack Speed ​​+50%)
  – Pikeman Charge (Charge with double damage, capable of even stunning cavalry)

• 4.- HRE Landsknecht Pikeman.- Should be a new unique unit. It has the pike formation tactic and better stats than other pikemen, but it costs gold instead of wood. It can attack at close range with a sword. (60f 30g)
  – Pike Formation Skill (- Movement -50%, +Attack Speed ​​+50%)
  – Katzbalger: Atk: 16, close range (0.0 - 0.29)
  – Portal Recruitment (Technology IV) - Recruits all your spearmen as Landsknecht pikemen. Costs 10 gold more per spearman recruited.

• 5. Spain Tercio Pikeman - Unique pikeman. It also has the pike formation and can attack at close range with a rapier. It costs less food, but slightly more gold. (40f 40w 10g)
  – Pike Formation Skill (- Movement -50%, +Attack Speed ​​+50%)
  – Coselete - For 20g, your pikeman gains +5/5 armor and becomes a heavy pikeman.
  – Rapier sword: Atk: 16, close range (0.0 - 0.29)

[SamuelWallace17]

Excellent. The pike square is a widely adopted historical tactic, so this is definitely a great concept. However, I think we need to consider a few design challenges for this proposal:

First, how do we visually distinguish them from regular spearmen? The Heavy Spearman simply adopted the MAA’s weapon-holding stance, but honestly, that approach lacks a lot of visual presence.

Second, how should they be countered? Should they be countered by MAAs in close combat, or by ranged firepower?

Finally, their stats must be designed with extreme caution; otherwise, we can’t guarantee they’ll actually be viable. After all, the most effective anti-cavalry units so far have been Janissaries and Camels, thanks to their relative advantages in range and mobility. A pike square, which lacks mobility, would clearly serve more of a supportive role since it lacks the initiative. Therefore, figuring out how to prevent this unit from becoming an expensive dead weight will be a crucial balancing issue.

[T0fuZomb1e]

I would agree on the idea of balance against the team game meta of all heavy cav all the time. They did recently buff spearman which is helping I think but when you have a mass of spear and crossbow it doesn’t always hold to the mass of heavy cav. I would definitely say the mass of jannisary or the new anti cab swordman are great additions to that roster. Order of the dragon gets double bonus against cav which helps when using their crossbow. Malian get a infantry unit that is anti heavy. HRE also had a MAA that is anti heavy. So there are some options and ways to tackle that, but again not every civ benefits from things like that. Really just focusing on as you age up, change the unit comp to counter heavier and cab heavy units. Mixing MAA with spears and crossbow will help ensure some tank line with units that will do more against cav.

[GoldenArmorX]

@SamuelWallace17

First, how do we visually distinguish them from regular spearmen? The Heavy Spearman simply adopted the MAA’s weapon-holding stance, but honestly, that approach lacks visual impact.

Historically, they dressed differently. Here are some examples, along with the civilizations that would have used them:

Spanish pikemen are notable for wearing a morion helmet and carrying a sword at their belt. They wore rags and a red ribbon on their arm or another visible part of their body. In the HRE, the spearman militia wore whatever armor they could find, while the Landsknecht “always” dressed in outlandish attire. In Switzerland, there were initially spearmen and halberdiers, and the first pikemen only appeared around 1400.

You won’t need to differentiate much between Spanish and Swiss pikemen and spearmen, because you obtain them through a technology that evolves all your spearmen into pikemen, similar to the upgrades for the Malian Farimba-Garrison.

[GoldenArmorX]

@SamuelWallace17

Finally, their stats must be designed with extreme caution; Otherwise, we can’t guarantee they’ll actually be viable. After all, the most effective anti-cavalry units so far have been Janissaries and Camels, thanks to their relative advantages in range and mobility. A pike square, which lacks mobility, would clearly serve more of a supportive role since it lacks the initiative.

I did some testing in AoE2, and it’s truly amazing, they’re absurdly powerful:

32 Kamayuk vs 26 Paladins:

32 Halberdiers vs 26 Paladins:

These are the standard Halberdiers in AoE2, which are equivalent in power, and I’m not kidding, to an Elite Heavy Spearman (in AoE2, anti-cavalry is more OP). But even they loss if the number of Heavy Cavalry is so high.

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32 Kamayuk vs 35 Elite Archers (well… Arbalesteirs):

Here I tested what happens when they approach Elite Archers if they don’t microcast properly. They get defeated. And note: Pikemen can attack “normally” with their pike outside of squad mode (50% attack speed), and they have a speed of 1.25, so they can pursue ranged units.

In fact, historically, this is how Swiss pikemen also defeated archers: They surprised them with pike charge attacks from the woods.

32 Kamayuk vs 26 Handcannoners +20HP:

Only concentrated, massive fire from Arquebusiers began to stop the Pikemen. That’s why, historically, Arquebusiers were used to face Pikemen. Now, it’s difficult to test Handcannoners in AoE2 because their accuracy isn’t 100%, they miss, and they have low HP. So I gave them +20 HP, but with the same accuracy. Win with 11 survivors, without much micro-intensity.

Short-range test: 32 Elite Phalangists vs 26 Elite Men-at-Arms (Armenian Champions):

Here I did a “what would happen” test if I didn’t give them short-range attacks. As you can see, they lose cohesion very quickly and even the fight rapidly against Men-at-Arms. However, I also shouldn’t give them too much short-range attack, or they’ll wipe out their own counter.

That said, Men-at-Arms are among the best counters against this unit.

That’s why they must have a secondary weapon. Otherwise, they don’t fulfill their role as “Super-anti-cavalry”.

Discussion

They turned out to be quite powerful, and that’s without even testing an attack speed boost… maybe +50% is too much… Nah… well, the devs will be to blame for that, especially if they give Pikemen to the Scots.

[SamuelWallace17]

@GoldenArmorX

You won’t need to differentiate much between Spanish and Swiss pikemen and spearmen, because you obtain them through a technology that evolves all your spearmen into pikemen, similar to the upgrades for the Malian Farimba-Garrison.

Ah, I see. So this is basically a spearman upgrade, meaning we don’t actually need a massive visual overhaul.

@GoldenArmorX

HP: 70/90/110/140, Atk: 7/8/9/11, Speed: 1.25, Range: 1.25. Base Cost: 50f 40w

Since it’s merely a spearman upgrade, tweaking its cost isn’t really an option. We’d need to be much more conservative and careful with its stat design.

@GoldenArmorX

I did some testing in AoE2, and it’s truly amazing, they’re absurdly powerful

Providing a late-game upgrade for spearmen is a viable option. At the same time, I think this needs to be paired with buffs to walls and faster training times. It would even be great to have some sort of fast deployment mechanic to get them to the frontlines (perhaps similar to the Maltese in AoE3).

Right now, spearmen replenish too slowly on the map and die way too quickly. This makes them completely replaceable by MAAs in the late game, leaving all the damage output to ranged units.

With these new mechanics in place, adding further upgrades to the spearmen themselves could also serve as a solid way to keep cavalry in check.

[T0fuZomb1e]

So wait with countering knights would you all say it is better to go men at arms paired with crossbows instead of spear and crossbows due to men at arms obviously being more durable of a unit and last longer despite not having the bonus damage to cavalry?

[Schizhao]

I have tried this mix of units but it didn’t perform that good as well. Since spears were frontlining, they were killed first by the archers and when the time comes for melee, they were too few to make a difference of damage.

My initial idea of “balance” was to double the range of Spears and at the same time, add custom formations for units so that at least I can make the MAA go front. That way, tanks in the front and damage on the second and back lines.

[T0fuZomb1e]

So crazy idea here but has worked the past couple days of playing. So instead of spears or even men at arms paired with crossbow, use horseman?

Army comp would be horseman to chase down, engage and stop knights from running off. Generally more HP than spearman, while costing food and wood. Similar to cost of MAA and are also used a bit like cannon fodder. The pair this with crossbow or handcannons or whatever cov specific thing you got.

The idea is running it similar to an ottoman death ball of siphai and Jannisary but using whatever cov units you have your hands on.

This keeps the cost low, still able to generally counter, and works against both an all knight mass or a knight mixed with archer mix.

Thoughts?

[Jace]

Perhaps all that is needed is each age upgrade for spearmen gives them +0.25 tile range.

So 1.25 > 1.5 > 1.75 > 2.

The AD spearmen upgrade may have to say +1.25 tile range instead of +100% though. Otherwise I’m fine with them having absurd range.

They might need to adjust the spears length on the model a bit though.

[T0fuZomb1e]

Interesting idea on the range increase with each age up! I would also say more civ specific techs do help! So like the Lancaster one which negates armor a little, Jin Dynasty with storm lancers, tughlaq with gives them more bonus against cav. Things like that for the other civs who don’t have that?

[grizzgolf]

The more you spam of them the better they are right?

[KnowingLamb8370]

So if a 3 spearman can kill a knight its balanced.Problem is you didnt play agressive and waited.When you wait lets say enemy got 100 knights and you got 100 spearman but knights cost triple the resource of the spearman so spearman player cannot spend all his resources.When 100 knights defeat 100 spearman game is over because you cant train enough spears to kill the knight when knights push.

My solution is every military building gonna have 5 training pool.Whats that means when you are at full pop.Trained units that cant get out will be added to this pool and as you lose soldiers they will get out immediatly.So in the training pool you got 5 trained spearman when 5 units died those 5 spearman will trained immediatly.After that that building continue training 1 by 1 until it reached pop limit and will start filling the trainin pool 1 by 1 again.

Camel riders are broken by the way they have everytihng and have no ranged counter its so broken.