Just wanted to throw some thoughts out there. Obviously none of this is confirmed or anything, just speculation based on how the newer civs/variants are being designed.
The more I look at Jin, the more I feel like it sits in a weird middle ground between a full civ and a variant. On paper it is treated more like a new civ, and mechanically it has a lot going on with Mounted Villagers, Emissaries, Tributaries, Meng’an Mouke, Iron Pagoda, Mounted Grenadiers, and its own music. But it also shares some models and voice lines with China/Zhu Xi, so presentation-wise it still has that “related civ” feeling.
Honestly, I don’t think that is a bad thing. If anything, I think Jin might be showing where the devs are going with this idea: reuse some assets where it makes sense historically, but make the civ play differently enough that it feels like its own thing.
That is also why I kind of wish Knights Templar and House of Lancaster had released in this same era of variant design. Both of those civs feel much more distinct than some of the older variants, and if they had released alongside something like Jin, who knows — maybe they would have gotten their own soundtrack or at least more unique music layers.
Knights Templar especially feels like it deserves its own audio identity. The civ is already very different from France in gameplay and theme. It has a crusader-state/military-order fantasy that could have sounded amazing with Latin chant, heavier percussion, and maybe some Levantine influence. It feels like one of the variants that most deserved unique music.
House of Lancaster is similar. It is obviously tied to the English, but it has its own War of the Roses flavor. I do not think it needs to sound completely unrelated to England, but a darker, more martial Lancastrian version of the English soundtrack would have made it feel more premium. Even a unique motif or age-up stinger would help.
That is what makes Jin interesting to me. Jin sharing some assets with China/Zhu Xi does not bother me much because it still gets enough distinct treatment to feel special. But it also makes me look back at civs like KT, Lancaster, and Ayyubids and wonder if they would have felt even better if they were released under the newer design philosophy.
For example, Zhu Xi has a solid historical basis, but I wish it leaned even harder into the whole scholar/bureaucracy/academy side of Chinese history. If the civ is named after Zhu Xi, I want it to feel more like an academy-state: civil service exams, stronger scholar-official identity, more emphasis on institutions, maybe even more distinct Shaolin flavor. Right now I like the civ, but I still think it could feel more unique compared to China.
Order of the Dragon is another one. The idea of fewer but stronger elite units is cool, but I think it could use more flavor as an actual knightly order. Things like chapter houses, vows, relic-based bonuses, commanders/marshals, or some kind of unit preservation mechanic would make it feel less like “HRE but expensive” and more like a true elite brotherhood.
Jeanne d’Arc is probably the one I would most like to see redesigned. I don’t hate the idea, but I think Jeanne would be more interesting as the center of a French resistance/liberation civ rather than a superhero unit. More banner, morale, visions, Orléans, Reims, peasant levies, and comeback mechanics. Less “France with a MOBA hero.”
For the newer variants, I would roughly place them like this:
Golden Horde feels more distinct than Jeanne, but still very close to Mongols at its core.
Macedonian Dynasty is interesting, but the Varangian focus puts it in a weird place.
Tughlaq feels stronger as a variant because the governor system and elephants give it a clearer identity.
Sengoku Daimyo might be the best example of a variant that almost feels like a full civ, because the clan allegiance system changes the whole fantasy of playing Japan.
My biggest concerns are probably Golden Horde and Macedonian Dynasty.
With Golden Horde, I think focusing on Batu Khan makes sense for the early Horde, but it also feels limiting. The Golden Horde later became much more Islamic, especially under rulers like Berke and Uzbek Khan. I think it would be really cool if they had some kind of later-game choice between staying more steppe/traditional Mongol or moving toward an Islamic khanate identity with tribute, trade, vassals, and state-building.
With Macedonian Dynasty, my issue is the Varangian focus. The Varangian Guard absolutely belongs with Byzantines, but since Vikings are already coming, it puts the civ in a weird spot. It can start to feel like “Byzantines with Vikings” or like a temporary Viking teaser. I think the Macedonians should lean more into Basil II, imperial restoration, themes, frontier warfare, silver economy, and Byzantine state power. Varangians should be part of the civ, but not the whole identity.
One small thing that I think would help: once Vikings are in the game, maybe reuse some Norse voice lines for the Macedonian Varangian units. Not the whole civ, obviously. Regular Byzantine/Macedonian units should still sound Greek/Byzantine. But Varangian-specific units speaking Norse would make them feel more intentional and less awkward.
Also, I really hope variants get more unique music eventually. I get that full soundtracks for every variant might not be realistic, but even unique motifs, age-up stingers, or combat layers for civs like Knights Templar, House of Lancaster, and Ayyubids would make them feel way more premium. Jin having its own music naturally makes the older variants feel a little left behind.
Overall, I think variants are at their best when they are not just “parent civ plus one gimmick.” They should feel like specific historical sub-civs with their own flavor, mechanics, and identity, even if they reuse some assets where it makes sense.
Again, just my thoughts/speculation. Curious how other people would categorize these newer variants.
