It is clearly a slippery slope argument
Wouldn’t be the forums if people didn’t make strawmen like this…
The problem with saying junk like this, is it actually detracts from everything else you’ve said, because it just proves you’re afraid of something that people don’t want anyway.
ie you don’t care what someone has to say, so long as they aren’t agreeing with you they are wrong?
“Water kills you, everyone that is dead has drunk water, therefore water kills you”
If you did any research you would realise there is a long list of problems with aoe4, and the things you mentioned are NOT the issue
One of the biggest issues was simply a terribly unfinished release, which the game likely won’t recover from.
Conversely one of the many reasons people DON’T play aoe2 is the terrible unit AI/pathing. The level of babysitting is inane
winning on the internet no longer matters to me is what I mean. the game is heading in a direction where it should not be going and it’ll be too late once we get there.
there are no problem with saying junk, since I know the other side dont care and only want their way. even if it helps a little, I will happily put out a counter statement just to let the dev know there are people who dont want game to change in that direction.
and the perfect example below who only wants it their way.
in my eye you’re the one coming up with such a dumb analogy. point out one RTS game for me that units patrol and attack move does not attack any building in its way once the units are gone, and also compare to how many RTS out there that does this.
I dont want to put words in your mouth like you did to me, but are you perhaps suggesting all those games are bugged? i doubt it.
not at all. infact thats what it should have been.
Except, the problem is that Attack Move/Patrol also doesn’t do that. If Enemy units are nearby, for example in enemy base, I would also except Attack Move/Patrol to ignore the buildings in favour of enemy units. It’s not even a matter of line of sight, as both are in line of sight, just the building (a farm, for example) is marginally closer.
My argument is an amended version of the OPs - I think in their case they could’ve indeed simply moved the army away from the base and then patrolled, so I specified the situation in my case where ignoring the buildings would be useful while enemy units are still there.
I cannot speak for every other RTS there is, or what their versions of patrols does. I do know there are some complaints about AoE2 not being as responsive and units not doing what you want them to do or expect them to do in comparison with other RTS games such as Starcraft or Warcraft.
Part of that is pathing, part of that is due to target finding, part of that is unit decision and neither one of these three are in your hands unless you explicitly micro every single unit of yours, and that is something unheard of in other RTS games when the army sizes are as large as in AoE2. There is specific unit micro when there are abilities, such as in Warcraft / Starcraft, but you also have a max of 16 units that can be selected together at a time, not 60 like in AoE2.
im not sure what you are talking about. it is designed to have your units kill nearby enemy units first if you use attack move/patrol and then proceed to attack enemy building when there are no more enemy units left.
I am asking you, point out one RTS game that does this cause I can’t think of any. this isn’t to denounce your argument but it is truth that in all other RTS game i’ve played they all act like this. Dune 2000, C&C 1 and II, SC 1 and 2, WC2 and WC3, AOE1, AOE2. Total Annihilation etc. I mean these are literally some of the biggest RTS title and they all do this, it can’t be they are all “AI pathing bug”.
your original argument actually made no sense so I point that out.
I have had several instances where that is not the case and no, I did not see wrong or whatever you’d think. And yes, I pressed Attack Move. No, the units did not attack the enemy units, and just continued to whack the houses/farms.
My original argument was about Attack Move ignoring units slightly farther away than the buildings and Attack Move favouring buildings in lieu of units in sight. My analogy was accurate, as the argument in the analogy wasn’t about Attack Move ignoring units, but the complaints about unit pathing in the past (and still now) while using Patrol/Attack Move while hypothetically microing units one by one would work better with pathing.
you would have to show me a replay/video because my experience is different. if there are units nearby, they attack units first and then building. with exception of ram/siege elephant those are hard coded differently.
also when I mention nearby, it is within their LOS and search radius is what I mean, hope that clarifies it.
as for your unit pathing, that is an entirely separate issue. the pathing is horrid but should not be tied to this. like i said if it behaved not what was described i’d love to see a video in action.
I really love your clarification. Some people in this thread including OP may not know this fact and think that it is unintended behavior. I hope it explains and no one will make any more analogy to say that it is similar to the path finding issue. Although it still cannot stop people to put words in another person mouth.
I don’t care enough to dig up the specific replay, so you’d have to take my word for it. It’s a bit of a pain when I don’t exactly remember which game it was 11
By nearby, I do mean within LOS and search radius, imagine being basically 1-2cm away from the units and 0.5 cm away from Buildings (or attacking a Building), Attack Move kept them attacking the buildings.
Hence I said it was an analogy.
the only thing from your observation that can be explained (which shouldnt be tied to this patrol/attack move), is unit has no pathing to the enemy unit even if its within LOS/search radius.
take a lumberjack for instance and u ask the villager to chop a tree that is unreachable even if its within LOS and search radius, what does the villager do? chop the nearest tree. that is designed AI behavior, though it can be improved on it is NOT the samething as what was originally described on above posts.
the same applies here, you ahve bunch of army in say between enemy buildings and some unit attack enemy units because they have ways to get to them. the remaining units can’t get to enemy units (tried for pathing, not sure how long it is but probably few seconds at best) can’t get there then proceeds to attack nearby building.
this is the best way to explain this if you are still not convinced.
again, anything more you’d have to show me a video for me to believe it.
Did you just complain about hotkeys? And also in relation to micro? Hotkeys increase micro because now you can do 100x more things than before. You can macro without leaving the fight, you can change formation and move at the same time… wth are you complaining about hotkeys for?
Multi Select and Multi Queue also increase micro btw. Micro isn’t “having to click everything” it’s controlling your units intensely to get the most out of them. Lierey is out microing ballistics because he ISN’T spamming individual production buildings and manually queuing up units.
this is my comment about hotkeys
you will have to try better than that to take what I said out of context, also where did I complain about hotkeys again?
try again and maybe you’ll finally win the argument you cared about. need better reading comprehension thats for sure.
Ok then full quote above. It sounds like a complaint because you say “Stop removing micro related stuff” implying that your comments about hotkeys multi select and multi queue have removed micro related stuff and that you dislike it since you don’t want any more of it.
So, if you were not saying that… why include that in the same sentence? And please kindly state you acknowledge that hotkeys and multi queue multi selected had added more micro potential, not removed any micro related stuff as your statement implies.
im stating it as a matter of fact. no complain where I see it. so you assumed and got it wrong, I understand now.
Very odd thing to say then. It’s not much of an assumption to assume the two halves of a sentence relate to each other.
How would you interpret someone saying “stop yelling at me, I get yelled at all day by kids and at work”
Surely not; that is a statement of fact that they get yelled at… entirely unrelated to them not wanting to be shouted at.
I did also notice you didn’t agree/concede hotkeys etc increase micro potential.
not at all, since it was in junction with how much this game has gotten better with QoL. everything we do requires a balance, you wouldn’t want villagers to auto garrison from enemy, auto ungarrsion and auto balance your resources, that would be just too much.
also, the OP and some other’s argument on AI pathing is false and I have explained above.
No, it was open area, with some houses and farms nearby, Paladins ran through the area, I had idle (some attacking buildings/farms cuz at first no enemy nearby) Halberdiers. Paladins ran close to my Halberdiers so I Attack Moved them (right clicking on a Paladin would make them all try to hit that one Paladin, but I wanted Halbs to just get hits in etc). Those that that were attacking Farms and Houses while Paladins were in sight and in search radius got the Attack Move command too, they walked away for a second and then decided to whack the buildings again.
I remember it very clearly since I tried that a couple of times and it’s also not the first time, but that was the clearest example I can remember. Sadly, digging through so many recorded games for that specific game and moment is horrible and not every game gets recorded (was lobby BF game), so there’s a chance that game didn’t even get recorded. I’d DM you the game if I could.
So idk, you’d have to take my word for it, but I could try to pay attention and DM you the recorded game if it happens at some point ago.
if that is the case then it might be worth a look and certainly not change entire thing simply because of pathing AI problem. but again, next time you come across it a video/replay would help.
I think the best solution is to have an option ingame. Let people choose, do they want units to attack buildings, or ignore non-aggressive buildings. I’m pretty sure most people would choose the latter, it’s more useful. When you attack move an army into an enemy base, you don’t want them to fight houses, that’s for siege to come and do (although you wouldn’t target houses, they are just a common thing attack moving units end up fighting), you want them to fight the military, and clear it out. If you attack move an army across the map, it’s stupid when half of it sees a house somewhere, and walks off, and if you don’t notice for whatever reason, then only half your army is going to show up, which is not good.
@thieftdp8498, let me ask you something. If you attack moved an army into an enemy base, what would you prefer? That they stop and attack every house and farm in their path, or that they ignore the buildings, and walk through the base hunting down units? The second option seems far more intuitive to me, considering most units aren’t that great against buildings. What about if you told an army to walk across the map using attack move, so they don’t get slaughtered if the enemy attacks them en route? What happens if they find some random enemy building, and half of them get distracted? Would you want that to happen?