I’ve recently got into treaty games and just noticed how TERRIBLE the Aztecs are in teams games. Some of their problems stem from the lack of not having permanent unit production techs available to them like European churches have. Sure the community plaza can have 15 villagers and 10 wp for an insane unit production but at the cost of 15 villagers that could be gathering food or coin is not very viable because you always tend to have the cp on fertility dance meaning your eco will always suffer. Also the 2 army reduction cards for Aztecs come in the cost of other important farm upgrades. Another problem is their mediocre economy, sure you can cp boom and have 99 villagers below the 15 minute mark but other than the community plaza, the Aztecs have no real economic bonuses. The community plaza also takes an extra 15 villagers in order to use its full effect which is not a good trade for treaty imo. Another problem is how bad their units are against large masses of infantry. Their knights have decent stats but don’t stack well with the lack of elite upgrades. After all their upgrade cards sent in, some of their units barely have a + 5 percent attack and hp bonus (ERK for example). They’re also expensive, and weak without their upgrade cards. Their slingers are weak in the late game, coyotes are decent tho. Jaguars still die very fast if not faster and are weaker after their “buff”. Arrow knights are still kinda weak and get outshined by it’s counterpart the hauraca and def could use a buff. Skull knights take very long to produce and the infantry card doesn’t help it either. It’s bugged. Imo these are some things that could help Aztec late game for treaty.
First thing is to make warrior priest dance more effective, 1 wp is equivalent to 2 villagers currently. My solution is to have the wp = 2.5 villagers and limit the community plaza to 20 dancers. This will make wp better by 25 percent w/o making the cp OP. Having 10 wp will now be the same as 10 wp + 5 villagers which is good for treaty since you don’t have to sacrifice as much villagers for a greater effect. 10 wp and + 10 villagers will be the same as 10 wp and 15 villagers but you don’t need 5 extra villagers. Also making cp instantly start producing is a welcomed buff. Of course early game could use a little adjustment with the new community plaza, like getting rid of 8 otontins card in age 2, but buffing the 9 otontin to 11 otontin for example.
Second, fixing some Aztec cards that are underwhelming or bugged etc. The Aztec infantry card that reduces time production by -40 percent should also now affect shock infantry (coyotes and eagle runner knights). Also the 8 villager + 10 percent to farms and estates card should be moved to the 4th age and should be changed to 10 villagers that can overpop you to 109 villagers. Now cost 750 coin and are + 20 percent to farms and estates. This will help with treaty games and be able to have 10 villagers on the community plaza w/o hurting your eco. The otontin card could also be changed to affect all warhut units by + 15 percent attack and hp. The infinite 6 arrow knights should be 12 infinite, 5 skull knights should be 6 infinite, and 7 skulls should be 9 skulls.
Also, adjusting Aztec knights to perform better. The arrow knight now gets a + 1 to siege (40 total), + 3 ranged attack (14 total) but deals siege damage similar to the huaraca. 1.5 vs artillery adjusted. The jaguar prowl knight gets a .25 speed buff for a total of 5 speed and + 2 attack. Jpk stealth is similar to the salteador in terms of speed now. The skull knight gets + 10 to it’s charged attack and + 10 armor.
Some age ups could get a little adjustment. The messenger could get a + 1 shipment like Inca. The elder now also grants war chief + 10 percent speed aura. The chief is bugged, the last age up doesn’t give you 50 percent attack and health to warhuts and noble huts. Now it does and it give age 4 and 5 + 2 build limits to both warhut and nobles hut. The wise woman now gives you:
Age 2 : 3 wp + 10 percent to farms/estates.
Age 3 : 1 town center + 20 percent to farms/estates.
Age 4 : 1 town center + 30 percent farms/estates.
Age 5 : 2 farms + 40 percent farms/estates.
The warrior now sends 4 skulls in age 3, 7 in age 4 and 10 in age 5.
In conclusion the Aztecs don’t need an entire overhaul but rather some adjustments in the late game to make them at least viable. There are some things the community might not agree with me but as an Aztec main, having 100s of hours playing with Aztecs I believe these are the key things the Aztecs need to thrive in team treaty games. Again I’m not here to argue for your civ. Yes there are other civs with late game problems but I’m not here for that. If you want go ahead and make a guide on what needs to be balanced for your civ in a balanced manner then go ahead make a case just don’t argue with me, make your own thread and make a complete detailed solution thank you. Imo these changes aren’t enough to make Aztecs OP, I’m open discussions. Thank you devs for listening.
I understand that the Aztecas treaty is very weak, but military shipments and the community plaza should not be buffed, at this time, the Aztec FI in 1v1 is destroying the ladder, the clearest example is Kaister, who reached the final FPL Winter Tournament with the Aztecs FI.
I believe that if you want benefits for treaties, the best option is to enable the possibility of training the Otomi slingers in groups of 10. The Insurgentes and Strelets are units that cost less than 70 res, and can be trained by 10. That’s why , I consider that the otomi should also be trained in groups of 10. It would not break the 1v1 and it would be good for treaty.
And about the harvesting of resources from farms and mills, I think that providing a buff to the Wise Women in Industrial or Imperial would be more than enough.
I reiterate, for the love of God, do not touch the community square and the military shipments, they will simply enhance the FI even more in 1v1.
I didn’t take the Aztec FI/skulls into consideration, that being said I would be happy with the farm and estates buff to wise woman in the late game as well as allowing for overpop with the 8 villager card and +20 percent to farm and estates but in age 4. Adjusting the Aztec infantry train card to affect shock infantry and skulls is a must as well. Make the arrow knight deal siege damage instead of ranged, also buff its attack +3 and +1 siege. The jpk is no longer heavy infantry, serves more as melee skirmisher. Gets .25 speed buff and +2 attack. The ontontin combat card should affect all warhut units by 15 percent attack and hp. And yes maybe even batch train otontins is a good idea. At least we can agree aztec eco is kinda trash when compared to civs like russia that has 2 factories and villagers that gather at 1.72 food and 1.65 coin respectively.
I can agree with the fact that original Amerindian civ have treaty / very late game issues (I put aside Inca).
If all civ can’t be equal in late game capacity, those civ are indeed some of the weakest economically in treaty, by absence of long term trickles of ressources (no factories, wonders, inca’s domain, or alternative mecanism), except high value infinite crates. Indians are also in the same situation if I remember correctly. The fact that a part of the population is needed to make community plaza, even in late game, amputate even more the economy.
It’s fun to see that Inca, the lastest Amerindian civ, have none of this issue : lama can be use for plaza, trickle of ressources everywhere (houses and domains), even trickle of wood in plaza.
I didn’t have a lot of experience in post-DE treaty game about army quality however, but yes Aztec have issue because of lack of any reliable units with aoe, skull knights being hard to produce in masse.
Vigilence is key, because indeed those civ can be strong (/op) in no-treaty situations. But some ajustements here and there to give a least a decent chance for those civ in treaty doesn’t seem to be illegitimate.
Literally their strong point are teamgames instead 1v1. They have team hardwoods and team 3 villagers for your allies. 2WP if there are natives ones.
If you do that, you are doing it wrong. Their units need the war dance, with it, they are very strong. Also you shouldnt spam a kind of unit (ERK) cause this ones are coin heavy, you need JPK that are cheaper to balance your eco.
99 villagers on farms work as 120 european ones, so they have an economic bonus, also they are very fast chopping wood. They dont need a lot of coin, you will save a lot by crate shipments. During treaty you have to gather wood and food, letting coin for the last minutes of the treaty.
If you want any buff, I would buff great chinampa for estates (inca get more with a similar card) and become the vills temple into a economic theory instead just for farms.
Also other bonis is to have WP, reaching the strongest plaza just with 15 pop slots.
I dont know what do you mean with this, they have 3 cards for knights plus temples (that are a must in treaty)
It isnt, that way would be OP in supre.acy games, same fpr lakota tokala riders
I think adding some tech in the imperial age to improve the noble hut unit creation could work. Since the warhut units have enough cards, the noble hut is the problem, in late game you need faster anti artillery.
I have a crazy idea that will make the jpk more viable in the late game for treaty w/o changing its strength too much in the third age or mid game. First change its tags similar to urumi as infantry and melee infantry to serve a different role. One of the main problems with jpks is that they have too many counters and not enough speed to compensate, they are also very fragile even though they are very tanky just because of how common goon + skirms comps are. I feel they should change its purpose to serve more as melee skirms to replace otontin slingers. Just buff its speed + .25 (5 total). Buff its attack + 2 (18 total) and change its multipliers against cav to light cav. It’s main counters would be heavy cav and artillery. This way jpks won’t have crazy counters like goons, skirms, artillery but rather replace the slinger by serving as a counter against light cav and soft counter to other skirms.
Bruh, JPKs are trash since the last patch. The speed buff was better for 1v1 but they keep being useless for late-game unless your enemy is only making melee inf which is very rare.
this has been suggested a very large number of times. I think if it were to be done they would absolutely have to deal ranged damage in melee to avoid them cheesing artillery and also to further weaken them against heavy cavalry. Its definitely a plausible suggestion because then erk - jpk would fill a skirm goon role while retaining its unique flair
Add a negative bonus to heavy cav and hand shock infantry by .75x and I think it would be ok. Idk about ranged attack because it would be very weak against artillery with artillery’s range defense of .75x.
Maybe weird idea but what about allowing for a 1-off overpoping of warrior priest(maybe 15) so that you can have a more powerful lategame without chaging much at all? you can change the age up option that gives skull knights in the lategame to give like 5 warrior priest.
Also maybe allow the switching between ceremonies to be instant
most skorms do about half damage to cav (penalty & range resist stacked). they also tend to do about 15 to 18 damage at base (which is then cut nearly in half by penalties and armour) with a rof of 3.0. Your suggestion is 20 dmg at a rof of 1.5 with only a small penalty. That should be self evident why that would be terribly overpowered. There is a huge reason urumi do ranged damage.
Secondly, being trash vs artillery is expected of skirms snd should be designed in. skirms in MELEE dont even beat heavy artillery. If you want jpk to be a skirm they do need to actually act like skirms. I think it would be good for the civ but it does need to follow the designed weaknesses of urumi, which would be the equivalent unit
Is said jpk with 18 dmg. Skirms also do .75x dmg to heavy cav look it up and since jpks lack ranged attack they can make up for it with a melee attack. Make it more unique to Aztec.
Actually, it would be better, because by having a limited number of barracks, it will allow you to distribute the army creation much better imo.
I agree, in 1v1 he is a killing machine, in late game he becomes more useless. But it doesn’t matter, the Skulls are much better.
I think that they should only modify the economic bonuses of the Wise Women in Industrial or Imperial. That plus the economic improvements that the azzys have at their disposal, I think that their economy would already be quite good.
lol telling one of the wiki article writers to look up something as basic as skirm multis, thats classic. read my post again, slowly and carefully. Trust me I know the math behind this game better than just about anyone.
skirm go shooty
hits the cav
cav bad for skirm, only does 3/4 damage (0.75)
cav strong, armour reduces damage even more
different cav has different armour but its kinda averages about 0.56 net damage to cavalry. it usually is either 0.8 x 0.75 or 0.7 x 0.75.
this is also at a rate of 3.0,remember that. jpk have a rof of 1.5. at 18 or 20 base damage, whatever, thats like a skirm with 36 or 40 base damage, and doing melee damage - cutting through the armor of cav, other skirms, artilery, in fact most things - while also now lacking a ranged counter AND melee damage makes them worse against muskets and melee inf, the thing they are supposed to counter.
Giving them ranged damage in melee fixes every single one of those issues without needing 20 penalties and bonuses (like the small novel on abus guns after the damage is listed).