Aztecs Suggestion

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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Hi all,

Intro
As you know some names and buildings were added/changed from the orignal version, like “Colony” related names, or for some units like “Macehaltin” to “Otontin”. I believe changes to improve gameplay or increase the accuracy are welcome, that said also I think that Aoe3 as Aoe 2 could still grow via uptades and expansions.

Also I know that there are bugs/issues that are driving people crazy… thus suggestions like this arent a priority.

a)Aztec Ethimiology

  • Is a modern term to refer/descrive the “nahua tribes” that came from Mytic Aztlan and founded Tenochtitlan and were part of the Triple Alliance. Thus should be “Mexica”.

b)Buildings & Economy
There is right now a very obvious problem for Native American factions, Economy and late game. The lack off a building that generates resources as a Factory and the slow resource gather rate.

Plantation/State

  • Remove from Native Americans (as Asians dont have them either) to be European exclusive building. The reason behind this is a building which produces goods to sell, historically speaking were slaves worked in the “New World”.

Farm

  • As with Asian factions to have the posibility of change and choose what does it produces, either food or gold, also this could benefit cards that increase gather rate like “Chinanpas”.

Tribal Market
I believe the idea was nice, but not the implementation, all natives should get this building. Initially I though this building could be a replacer for Plantations/States.

Mexicas and most other native Americans didnt use gold as currency, Mexicas used “cacao”, gold was used to craft idols and jewelry.

  • This to work like a Factory, send via card from Capital, that once build can generate resources, food, wood or gold.

Temple (Church/Monastery)
All civs except Native Americans have a Temple/Church/Monastery building, for Lakota and Haudenosaunee is reasonable to point since their “holy” sites were in nature, but both Incas and Mexicas were builders of renown, and specially in Mesomerica there are still a lot of its Temples.

  • New building, were we can train Priests and other units, developt new techs as Europeans/Asians (Can garrison and attack like war hut or noble hut). Trainable priest would release some villagers from being tied to the Plaza.
    Tech: Increase size of trainable troops from 5 to 10, increase healing (as europeans/asians).

Plaza
Both Incas and Mexicas plazas to have model upgrades when reaching a new age, to show the progress of its settlement, for stetic porpouses.

c)Units
Their military system allowed anyone to rise to “nobility” via archiving a rank or joining a “Warrior Society”, those ranks were dependant on the number of captures during Battle(s), and each rank awarded specific equipment, like flags, shields, helmets. However there were certain positions (the highest) that were limited to those who were “Noble”.

  • Villager: change ranged weapon from Atlatl to “Caribbean” blowgun.
    Reason: Atlatl was considered a weapon of nobles, thats why Eagle Knights have them.

I ll list a building and then the units that it produces.

War Hut

  • Macehualtin: The commoners within the Empire, they were equiped with only its weapon, had no armor, shield or sandals, if they captured enemies alive could archive a rank. (Basically a villager with a melee weapon)*.
    Visual Upgrades: Elite: Gains a shield. Champion: Gains cotton armor.
    Cost no population, Max limit: 100, replaces “Warrior/Militia”.

From here down below all were part of a Warrior Society or had a rank.

  • Coyotl (Coyote Runner): Rename to nahuatl name.
    Visual Upgrades: Initial: Short cotton vest, wooden shield. Elite: Full cotton suit, reinforced shield. Champion: Coyote suit, plumed shield. Legendary: Plumed helmet.

  • Miztli (Puma Spearmen): Rename.
    Visual Upgrades: Initial: Short cotton vest, wooden shield. Elite: Full cotton suit, reinforced shield. Champion: Puma suit, plumed shield. Legendary: Plumed helmet.

Noble Hut

  • Ocelotl (Jaguar Knight): Rename, increase move speed.
    Visual Upgrades: Initial Elite: Full cotton suit, reinforced shield. Champion: Jaguar suit, plumed helmet, plumed shield. Legendary: Ornate Plumed helmet and shield

  • Cuauhtli (Eagle Knight): Rename, melee weapon (macahuil), hand attack increase.
    Visual Upgrades: Initial Elite: Noble cloak, reinforced shield, banner(arrow). Champion: Eagle suit, plumed shield. Legendary: Plumed helmet, banner eagle knight.

Both Eagle and Jaguar should use a full cotton suit, emulating their corresponding animal, some used greaves and bracers. Their helmets were carved of wood, painted and adorned with feathers. Not all used banners in the back, some banners represented a rank sometimes, for example Puma Champion Back banner was depicted to be used by Generals.

  • Tequihua (Arrow Knight): Rename, this unit uniform correspond to a rank created after the Campaigns with the Huastecs.
    Visual Upgrades: Initial Elite: Full cotton suit, reinforced shield. Champion: Conical hat, plumed shield. Legendary: Plumes, jewelry.

No back banner in any model for this one.

Temple
Units trained here are noble born that learn at Calmecac to Rule the Empire, would become the next Generals and Emperors.

  • Priest: Trainable at Age I for 100 gold as all Priests/Monks.

  • Otontin (Otomies Plural): Slinger with good hp and attack.
    Visual Upgrades: Initial Elite: Noble cloak, reinforced shield, banner. Champion: Full green cotton suit, plumed shield, banner arrow knight. Legendary: jewelry

Warrior society that took its name from the Otomi people, a known member from this was Tzilacatzin, that was a great warrior that killed several spanish with stones.

  • Cuachic (Cuachicqueh, formerly Skull Knight): Rename.
    Visual Upgrades: Initial Elite: Noble cloak, reinforced shield, banner. Champion: Full yellow cotton suit, plumed shield, banner arrow knight. Legendary: jewelry
    High hp and resistances, increase move speed, Max limit: 20

Were the most prestigous Mexica warriors, heads shaved apart from a long braid over the left ear, faces painted half blue half red or yellow, served as shock troopers.

  • Chieftain: secondary ranged attack from spear thrower (atlatl, like eagle knights).
    Eagle Eye: Instead of “Cuachic Asention”, a skill that throws a spear dealing damage, like “Condor Eye” from Incan Chieftain.

D)Cards

  • Poison Card: Add poison to ranged attacks of: Arrow and Eagle Knights. Since Mexicas used poison in some weapons too.
  • Cacique: Sends another Warchief (weaker than your main). This to represent that the warchief we start off is the Emperor and we can call a warchief from other city in the empire.
    Would be nice if this new warchief could be named and had other Model.
  • Tlacateccatl: Ships a General (Tlacateccatl) from the Capital, which functions as a Daimyo. Can train units, has good stats, bost units around. When killed can be hired/created in the Temple. Model: Champion Puma Spearmen with shield.
  • Tlacochcalcatl: Ships a General (Tlacochcalcatl) from the Capital, which functions as a Daimyo. Can train units, has good stats, bost units around. When killed can be hired/created in the Temple. Model: Skull Knight, spear and shield.

If you have read till here thanks, I spend quite the time making this post and reading a bit here and there, searching visual references and so, to further understand some “models” and units styles I recommend to see the links below and see the codex.




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Do you think Aztecs need a Gamplay change?
  • Yes and I agree with these suggestions.
  • Yes, but only a few of them
  • Yes, but other changes.
  • Maybe, I dont know.
  • No, they are fine as they are.

0 voters

3 Likes
2

Reserved
Pd: And I know many other civs, have its own issues.

Edited 12/11/20
Balance: Cards, Economy and Military
Its a known issue the weak Aztec economy in late game, mainly because of gold and wood. While Europeans with the Factories can pick the resource they lack, which in most casses is wood.

Some have comment about the posibility of reforest, send forest groves or have a tree farm. I agree this would be quite helpfull.

Aztecs have 5 cards that affect gather work rate in farms, thats one of the reasons why above suggested adding the posibility of swtiching from food to gold and removing Plantation/State from Native Americans as Asians have, also this would allow them to have gold production as early as Age 2.

Cards that affect Farm gather rate:

  • "Food Silos" (Common): +15% gather work rate for farms.
  • "Sustainable Agriculture" (Common): +15% gather work rate for farms.
  • "Grain Market": +20% gather work rate for farms.
  • "Chinanpas": +10% gather work rate for farms/plantation.
  • "Great Chianpas:" +15% gather work rate for farms/plantation
  • (15+15+20+10+15)= +75% + (10/15/20% From Wise Woman) = +95% gather work rate.

This is quite high compared with all other civs, in late game with near 5 villagers gathering food while all other at wood and gold. I believe very few pick all cards, and with the limit of 25 deck cards fewer.

"Team Silver Mine:" +10% gather work rate for mines.
"Aztec mining:" +40% gather work rate for mines.

Aztec mining is a great card, however its avaliable till Age 3, meaning it becomes quite useless by that time either by the lack of mines or the avaliability of Plantation/States, If it was avaliable at Age 2 or even 1 would be an awesome card.

Overall I feel there are a few cards that kind do the same and could be merged or other improved, for example as stated above why 5 cards when we could have 2-3 stronger. This is an issue that most civs have not only in economical cards and that deserves its own post.

Another point is building, many players have the “tradition” of building barracks/stables around all the map, while its a trouble for civs that have Blockhouse/War Huts, since both are restricted as Outsposts are.

Dont know why original devs made such restriction for “defensive” buildings, but its hidrance, either all have such restriction added to barracks/stables or have it removed from outposts, castles, war huts.

1 Like
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Aztec do not have tribal market.

Although some of the ideas of cosmetics and cards are neat, i would prefer that they would actually balance the civ, as it currently has the following problems:

  1. Bad WC with several Treasure gathering problems;
  2. Units are not strong enogh especially in colonial (when aztecs spend most of their game)
  3. Inca being better in every single way (thwy can actually train their “skull knights”)
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@DAC1789 Yes I know they dont have the tribal market, nor Incas. But they way the implemented it as I said was half baked, all American Natives should have it, and should replace Plantation/State, without the need of being near a mine.

Yes also I have read about those problems, also played with them but I dont agree totally with them, yes abilities are crappy, but you start with Chief and Priest if you find a tresure with human guardian it makes it way easier, so far I got no trouble with it. In fact of all the civs I consider it to be one of the easiest to gather treasures with, since Chief tanks, priest deals damage and heals.

Plus, end game trough right cards and upgrades Mexicas are way more powerfull than Incas, yes both should be able to train top units and priest, so other American civs too. Not all ideas are Cosmetic, both General cards give 2 Daimyo type units, and extra explorer (Cacique), giving them a thrash cheap unit (Macehualtin), having a 3rd defensive building (Temple), improving Otontin unit to second only to Cuachic (Skull Knight), and improving hand to hand combat of Eagle Warrior.

Pd:Thanks for reading and comment.

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Why don’t do both? Rework the native american civilizations so they are more competitive and are more historic accurate at the same time?

So, about the topic. Honestly I don’t know much about Aztec/Mexica culture but if we take this in consideration:

Replacing coin for a new and unique resource to the Aztecs could add a interesting unique game mechanic for them. They could work more or less like the Japanese, that cannot hunt and have to send cherry orchards rickshaws or construct farms to gather food. The Aztecs should not be able to mine coin, but instead have a sort of a “cacao plantation travois” to acquire the unique currency cacao on early game, and this could help balance they competitiveness, as they would not feel the need to fight for coin mines on the map, more or less like the Japanese do.

2 Likes
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Hey @Wolfstack,

First, thank you for your great ideas and the culture you gave !

I’m interested in doing a rework, and maybe I might apply some of the idea you’ve put here (and of course I will credite you for the ideas you gave).

I just don’t understand some points :

  • What is the difference then between the Coyote and the Macehuatlin (reworked) ?

  • Why putting a church/monastery to hire Priest/Monks when you have the Aztec Temple, where you will also produce the new elites units ?

  • How do you see Otontin different from the actual Macehuatlin ? Should it be classed as a heavy infantry, less speed, but same attackspeed and higher HP pool ?

  • How Aztecs then would deal with heavy infantry without the olds Macehuatlin ?

Thank you for your answers !

1 Like
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Hi @KylluaZ, thanks for reading and replying.

Perhabs I didnt explained myself as I haved liked, Im not a native English speaker. Then let me “rephrase” myself and explain:

  • What is the difference then between the Coyote and the Macehuatlin (reworked) ?
    Short Answer: Coyete is the same, just suggested a name changed to use Nahuatl, the Macehualtin now in game Otontin reflexes a noble tear second to the Shorn Ones, both lived in the Palace with the Emperor. While in theory the name “Macehualtin” is a commoner, being a commoner in the Mexica Empire meant that they had virtually no equipment or traning, just their weapons and not even sandals. So in game, coyote remains as a fast anti artillery unit, and Macehualtin a type of militia trash unit that we could spam around.

Long Answer: the trouble with Aztecs is that many things are unknown, and many of the things we know as many other cultures are told after they were defeated, that said the way their military is structured: the more captures one would have they would up in the ladder, so a Commoner (Macehualtin) would have only a weapon no sandals, and could rise up to be a Jaguar Knight for example (with the exception of the Cuachic (shorn ones) and Otontin that were noble born exclusive as a mesurment to keep those that were nobles at “start” as so. Plus from the Cuachic they draft the Generals and from the Generals an Emperor).

However in the game this is not properly portrayed, since would be quite difficult. Also the military tactics led me to think that they just “harass” their enemies with ranged weapons at the start of the battle to later swtich to melee and capture people. And as many cultures they could carry different weapons, spears, axes, clubs, blades and unless part of an “order” their equipment would vary too.

That said my theory is that for example the Coyote warrior exemplifies how a commoner would rise up in ranks and eventually wear a woodedn helmet of their chosen animal (Thus if we seek an order of Coyote warriors we dont find anything, since there was no order of them within the empire). That said is weird why the Puma spearman doesnt wear a helmet when upgraded. So each unit depicts a rank.
ex;
Cuextecatl = Arrow Knight
Papalotl = Macehualtin/Otontin

  • Why putting a church/monastery to hire Priest/Monks when you have the Aztec Temple, where you will also produce the new elites units ?
    Church/Monastery/Temple are the same thing, sorry I meant to say that Temple would be the correct word culturaly speaking, but the three are the same, will correct the post too. Plus wanted to speak of the building itself Temple (church) and then what would it train.

  • How do you see Otontin different from the actual Macehuatlin ? Should it be classed as a heavy infantry, less speed, but same attackspeed and higher HP pool ?

  • How Aztecs then would deal with heavy infantry without the olds Macehuatlin ?
    The (Macehualtin) Otontin would be changed to its correct model with the same weapon a sling, they were in theory superior in heriarchy to all others excepting the Cuachic (Shorn One), and that model should be like Puma spearmen but green color as in the codice number 4 first with green outfit.
    The current Macehualtin/Otontin depicts a Papalotl warrior, number 3 the one in the middle of the codex.
    In terms of stats yes hp and heavy infantry would be the basic, since the above mention, would be nice to test how they handle around with other stats like speed and so.

1 Like
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the aztecs are fine they just need a gold unit to counter skirmishers and a way to earn wood late game. Stop trying to gut them

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They’re not fine, they’re boring and are so predictable. I invite you to read what I’ve said there :

The actual game design of Aztecs is minimalist, and deserves to be deeper and more fun.

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@KylluaZ, yes as stated in that discussion, Incas should be defensive civ while Aztec offensive.

There are 2 things that are most notorius of them, Capturing people and Sacrifices, from what I have read its one of the Cultures both in Mesoamerica and in the World that focused on Sacrifices a lot.

Also personally I feel they lack would siege units, but thats understandable since they didnt “siege” as other cultures did. Plus both Incan and Aztec units are expensive compared with other cultures and their rentability. I mostly use Coyote (front lines or to strike at siege), Eagle knight (good ranged attack), Arrow Knight (for artillery and siege), and Skull knight (fronlines).

While Otontin and Puma weak and easy to kill. Jaguar Knight way to slow to even do something, good as meat shield or to use by his ability.

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Hi all, I invite all that have read my post and those who havent to read it (again). I have change a lot and rephrase many things in order to be more clear (I think). Will post a poll leave comments please.

1 Like
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Even late game Aztec food eco is still worse than European civs as their gather is still lower due to mills having a higher rate than farms. I think having a general/daimyo like unit would definitely make them stronger late game, though I don’t think that WPs should be trainable. The WP boom and training at the firepit is one of the only strategies available to Aztec.
If they could have an unlimited mango grove age IV that would rebalance them late game, allowing the production of otontin slingers and coyote runners.
Also their eco is lackluster in the entire game if the WP boom isn’t used.
Also running around collecting treasures with a WP is a terrible use of them, instead of tasking them to the firepit, thus making the unique warchief bonus useless.

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I support the motion and they should make the changes immediately, thank you

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Giving Temples, changing the names of the units and the civ? Yes.
Making them a weird mix of Aztecs, Portugal and Japan? No.

Bandeirante and Daimyos are something that should never go together in a civ, and Aztecs unist are already way stronger than normal, to compensate for the lack of Artillery.

Allowing them to train in batches of 10 is also OP, the Temple should have 3 upgrades: one thta allows batches of 7 units (a better compromise), a healing upgrade (like Mission Fervour) and an upgrade that improves Temple XP trickle.

This is not true, Aztecs have so many cards for Food, that they can outproduce any other civ. They also have the best Plantations, since a lot of these cards work on them too.

1 Like
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I loved your suggestions, American civs need love

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I would also add Nahuatl voices faithful to the original language of the Aztecs, even some Age of Mithology moders did it and it’s great

1 Like
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This is not true, Aztecs have so many cards for Food, that they can outproduce any other civ. They also have the best Plantations, since a lot of these cards work on them too.

No this is wrong. Here is the breakdown:
farm base gather rate is 0.5
so 0.5+(0.5*(0.1+0.15+0.2+0.5+0.15+0.15+0.2+0.1+0.15))=1.35 for farms
estate base gather rate is 0.5
so 0.5+(0.5*(0.1+0.2+0.5+0.1+0.15))=1.025 for estates
That is with all home city cards except for the 10 villager for 1000 coin, and without the age up politician.
With both of those we get:
0.5+(0.5*(0.1+0.15+0.2+0.5+0.15+0.15+0.2+0.1+0.15+0.1+0.2))=1.5 for farms
0.5+(0.5*(0.1+0.15+0.2+0.5+0.1+0.15))=1.175 for estates
To obtain their maximum rate in both farms and estates the Aztec need to send 6 cards and age up to Imperial with the Wise Woman.

By comparison a standard European Civ (Russians) has as follows:
Mills have a base gather rate of 0.67
so 0.67+(0.67*(0.15+0.3+0.5+0.15+0.15+0.2+0.1))=1.71 for mills
Estates have a base gather rate of 0.5
so 0.5+(0.5*(0.1+0.2+0.3+0.5+0.2+0.2+0.25+0.25+0.1))=1.55 for estates
To obtain their maximum rate in both mills and estates the Russians need to send 8 cards. Even if they send 6 cards, Russians still have significantly higher gather rates.

So, in conclusion the Aztec’s max gather rate for farms is 0.21 worse than European gather rate on mills, and Aztec’s max gather rate on estate’s is 0.375 worse than max European gather rate on Estates. Due to the nature of upgrades in this game stacking on base rate, the Aztec would need a card/tech that increase farm gather rate by 42%, and a card that increases estate gather rate by 75% to simply match a standard European civ’s gather rates. This is only half the story too as Europeans get two factories, and can keep all 99 villagers tasked to resources at all times, whereas Aztecs might need to task some the firepit.

I suggest that the Aztecs should be able to unlimited ship 1 gold mine wagon to make up for their horrendous estate gather rates.

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Aztecs make more than enough Gold since they lack Cannon, Europeans are the Gold-hungry civs in this game.

The main resource of Aztecs is Food, and they have the best Farmers already.
Aztecs usually float a lot of resources.

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Aztec Vills, don’t get stuck within mill and they don’t bump into eachother. Making them get 1.71 like euro civs will be broken. As they don’t move

Gold wise Aztec is not a canon civ. And most of the time aztec rarely spam units that cost gold. [ Mainly ERK ] But the gold you get is enough to spam these and arrow knights. You also have to keep in mind that you have 1k coin infinite and aztec Hero bonus is getting a lot of EXP

What aztec truly lacks is wood in the lategame. Which if you don’t get anymore. You kind lose to musk/skirm + walls very hard

2 Likes
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Also, aztek cant play age 1 which is pretty annoying. More boring than otto, that’s not nothing.