Archers already don’t cost much, and are spammed in mass, so it either risk to be meaningless or OP.
For example, in feudal age, it could be too strong even if you have just a third of the cost refouded, considering the high turnover of the units and the delicate balance of feudal eco, if it is less or it would happen later in the game (when the eco is more solid) it would be a weaker version of the mayans discount bonus.
Also, in my opinion it would be more suited for a UT than for a standard civ bonus.
Again, considering the quantity of the units that would be affected, there isn’t a margin wide enough between being OP and meaningless.
The units that regenerate HP are either UU or situational units (like camels).
Plus, in this case we are talking of a unit that most likely will die to one manganel shot, so most of the time that effects won’t come into play.
Consider that berserks and CamelA are 2 units that can survive most attacks and retreat fast enaugh to use their regenerative abilities, xbows wouldn’t be able to do so.
To me +1PA stackable with pavise is the best bonus that we can give them.
Maybe some variation of it, like +1/1 or +1PA for both xbows and skirms.
Then the free archer armor upgrades would be a decent bonus too, but a lot weaker.
To be really effective they should buff pavise to +1/2 for standard xbows in combination with this bonus.
+1 attack isn’t totally crazy, considering that the Italians don’t really have an strong eco to abuse it, but it is more risky, and people might find a way to abuse that.
+1 attack is strong in feudal, but shouldn’t be OP. I think it could work.
Alternatively, armor bonus could be +1/+1 to archer line, GC and HC. 1 melee armor may sound strong, but it’s actually reasonable due to archers’ low HP and 0 base armor. Otherwise +1 PA, but to all archery range units and GC. Well, we can exclude CAs I guess…not that anybody would use them with italians anyway.
Archers themselves are pretty broken since DE, but that’'s a different story.
Archers by themselves can micro around mangonels, and evade skirms in this world of super reduced PING, LUCIFER LEVEL EVIL BS called STACKING and BAD PATHING.
+1 PA or +1/1 sound the most reasonable, but not sure if giving it to skirms makes sense. Probably it does, even if it would seem a bit overlapping with viets.
Free archer armors follows the same philosophy, but it is slightly more helpful in the early stages of each age, while useless in the later stages of each age.
Another option I proposed, which is the weakest version of all the armor bonuses is free UTs (even from feudal and without the castle need ). This is translated in +1/1 armor and a boost to fast imp into condos. Italian UTs are weak so they can be given for free. In practice “free UTs from Castle Age” is equivalent at making UTs becoming civ bonuses. This is much much weaker than a +1/1 armor as civ bonus. I guess that it is an option for the few people not supporting an Italian buff.
+1 attack could even start in castle, I know that we should find something to help them in feudal but that is such a powerful bonus that can compensate for a bit of feudal struggle.
Alone is decent, but if you buff a bit pavise (+1/2) it should work well.
GC stats are fine, they just need less TT.
As for the others archers, +1MA from pavise is enough, even if we give them ANOTHER stackable +1MA as a free bonus, it wouldn’t have any impact, since the main melee units (like knights) will still need the same number of hit to take down a xbows.
In my opinion +1PA (with pavise it would become +1/2) is a more solid and good bonus, it could affect skirms too, but there is no need for it to affect CA or GC.
It less helpful during all the ages, since having more PA simply give you the option to either delay the armor upgrades or to get them and overpower your enemy, while free techs simple give you the first choice.
More PA is more flexible.
But why, it completely deviate from the game structure, and it wouldn’t solve Italians problems.
It is the weakest way to provide the armor bonus. Basically, instead of having the only thing making italians different after you build a castle, you get it from the beginning. Clearly +1/1 armor is 100% equivalent in feudal and in castle age until the castle is built. Then +1/1 is simply stronger since it stacks with pavise.
If someone thinks +1/1 is too much, then free archer armors is a weaker version of +1/1 and free UTs is a weaker version of free archer armors.
I am fine with the strongest version +1/1, but, since there is always someone saying a proposal is OP, I was just trying to propose weaker versions of the same logic!
But basically you would trade a bonus more for a UT less, it doesn’t make sense, it would like saying that since bulgarians have krepost they should’t have castles. It’s simply too much against the game structure.
Also, in the end the problem would be the same, the italians would still be underpowered, since their units would be pretty much the same (they would have a small power spike in feudal, nothing that crazy).
I am with you, but currently they are so weak that I am saying: at least give them free UTs for a small feudal buff… +1PA is better, but in this patch they got zero feudal buff… so at least something is needed…
I know, but free UT isn’t a bonus that we will ever see. The UT are further bonus given to civs to unlock after a certain period and during a certain stage of the game, they can’t be given for free like other standard upgrades.
An option would be to make the effect of pavise a bonus, but then you would have to find a new UT for their castle age, and that seem a lot more harder to balance.
Yeah, but by the time you get pavise, you are either in late castle age or early imperial. That upgrade typically comes in way too late. Plus 1 extra MA does make the difference (hope i didn’t mess up with the calculations):
Late castle age scenario:
Crossbow (35 HP) with all armor upgrades + pavise + 1 MA bonus = 4 MA total
Since by the time you get pavise the enemy has probably FU knights, they have 12 attack.
Which implies knights do 8 damage, so it takes 5 hits to kill a crossbow. Without 1 MA bonus, they do 9 damage which implies 4 hits to kill a crossbow.
Early castle age scenario:
You have all blacksmith armor upgrades and +1MA bonus, but no castle and no pavise. Likewise, enemy probably has only armor on his knights and attack upgrades, so 10 attack.
With or without 1MA bonus, crossbow dies in 5 hits regardless.
Late imp scenario:
Against FU cavaliers, 1 extra MA doesn’t change anything (always 4 hits to kill a FU arbalester). Pavise also doesn’t change anything: generic arb requires 4 hits regardless.
Let’s assume we are instead against FU paladins, you all armor upgrades, pavise and 1MA bonus = 5 armor. FU paladins do 18-5=13 damage. Arbalester (40 HP) dies in 4 hits. Without 1 extra MA and just pavise, just 3 hits. Generic FU arb also dies in 3 hits.
Instead of plain +1 attack they could receive +1 damage bonus against certain unit type, like scout line, militia, elephants or knights. This bonus wouldnt affect enemy villagers.