Balance Changes to consider for when the DLC goes live

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
21

in what situation? how about against eagles? you know - a unit they have bonus damage against.
as for the trash armor - its not something i’m sold on, but the point of it was to make the militia line a true counter to trash units, instead of just a “soft counter”.

i wanted to keep what makes their eco unique. the ability to actually get eco upgrades early - nerfing it down to 25% or 33% makes that harder to pull off, but by reducing their starting wood by 50, you effectively delay them from doing anything, it’s not a big slow down, but it is effective.

if you read the rest of what i said, i said it wouldn’t do much on hybrid maps - but the fact is i don’t think they need those anyway. Lithuanians weren’t known for their navy.

why? the 2nd feudal TC is either hit or miss - you refer to settings where its broken - what about those settings where its not? have you seen cuman winrates recently?

really? saracens are a strong civ? have you seen them in tournaments recently? seen them on the ladder?

i wanted to keep the power of the eco bonus, as i think nerfing it to 33% will make it not very relevant in the dark age - think about it. you’d be trading roughly 67 food (for double bit) for about 60 extra wood tops. on the other hand making them start with only enough wood for 2 houses and a lumber camp slows them down as they immediately have a choice to make - go for DBA first or go for Mill first?
either way its going to slow them down.

i give them 2 bonuses with my changes - making them cheaper (with cuman merc change), and making them produced faster (with Steppe Husbandry).

22

Not a fan of this.

Bad changes all around. Just make Flemish revolution scale with the ammount of villagers and if the eco is too strong make it 40% cheaper

I like those

Doesnt really fit the civ honestly

Eh, no. I think that just reducing the cost or making the effect better somehow is a better idea

Pretty sure it will be the same

I dont like this at all

Eh, I think that it doesnt help Italians enough on open maps. Pretty sure thats where the focus of a buff would have to go and not to Arena.

This is fine but it makes hte other nerf to their water unnecesary. Also maybe 125 may be better

I think this isnt a well targeted nerf.

The El Dorado change is fine but would rather have the effect nerfed.

Arent Saracens fine?

Not sure if this will change the civ that much. Particularly when Spanish already build houses faster

Adding to those changes I would reduce the attack or the RoF of the non-elite Chu Ko Nu.

23

The same that giving extra armor to burmese elephants : making SL cheaper and faster won’t make them useful, since they’re already cheap and fast (unless you make them broken fast/cheap)

And it’s okey for burgundians not to be gaining something in dark age from their ecobonus, as they will be gaining a lot from in in their transition to Feudal

24

And getting to 0,95 or 1 speed should help them force fight with eagles? Optimistic

I see that they already have above 50% winrate in most closed maps TG setting. Giving them cheap stables over a guaranteed and risk-less 2TC boom doesn’t look ideal to me.
I know there have map where they’re crap, but you can’t ignore map where they’re already very strong either. Simply the way the bonus works means they’re never going to be balanced everywhere, that’s why it’s a bullsh*t design.

They’re quite prioritized in team game tournaments, they saw usage in KOTD, they didn’t in HC4, but 1/3 of the civs didn’t see usage in that tournament aswell. I stay with my opinion, giving 100 wood at the start to a civ that can comfortably perform 21+2 pop FC into both aggression or boom, or even play strats like 20 pop archers with 3 ranges, it’s not a brilliant idea I can assure you 11.

25

I liked your topic, you really have good points but I have some points to comment about.

I don’t know if you can consider this as nerf because you will make their opening much better and more smoothy so it will not make any difference from their original bonus.

Hmmmm, I am not sure, this will not change their strong 50% discount, it will only slow them down a little in dark, so I still prefer (25% dark, 35% feudal, 45% castle).

This is too much, give them only one of those.

I don’t think Italians need any buff honestly.

No need for the +100 wood, agree for Mameluke but what about Madrasah?!

26

Thats a complete overnerf on something that its fine outside the synergy with Flemish Revolution.

Just nerf Flemish Revolution instead

27

People were talking about FR UT as a meme UT and a “meh” then suddenly they start to say it is OP you know why? Because after Burgundians last eco buffs, the civ is now broken at all ways.

28

The civ is fine outside maps in which you can boom safely. As long as you can nerf Flemish Revolution they will be fine there as well

29

No bro, the civ is not fine at all, 50% discount eco and age before is completely vanilla thing and so strong to deal with anywhere.

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30

Pros say they are fine, the stats show they are fine.

You are the only one saying that they are super broken everywhere

They are strong for sure but they arent broken nor are the strongest civ around even

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31

As usual, I like almost everything you propose!

Infantry and HC buffs are needed, difficult to disagree here.

I do not think a nerf is needed. But I like the UT change a lot tbh.

Big yes

Personally I would work more on the cata cost, by reducing the gold price. I agree with all the other changes.

Chinese need a nerf. Not sure if this is enough, but definitely a good start.

Ok for the building bonus. But I do not think that change of cuman mercenaries is what they need. I would rather buff the UU range.

Fair

Well, this sounds pretty strong. But I like it to compensate the nerf. It is also a UT, so it is fine

Totally agree. This fits their university theme and at least may help to justify such a weak start. Not sure if this is enough for a land buff.

I do not think the civ need la a nerf

El dorato nerf is ok. Mayans are pretty good atm, typically an eco nerf may be very big, not sure if this works.

Fine with this. Mamelukes are too expensive. It can be even cheaper.

I do not like this too much tbh. I think they need a small early boost. The solution is still an option, I agree it is difficult to find something better…

32

I agree they need help in the early stages, but SE is very thematically coherent with them. It would also justify a bit more their weakness in the early stages.
I would still look for another early game buff, but the SE is very needed. Not OP at all: Recall that Portuguese have SE, the same gold cost and a UT…

Exactly

33

Yes to this, no to this

I’m going to quote yourself here: how are you going to counter the militia line in late game? Right now hussar trades pretty well with the champion. If both 2HS and champion get to 1.1 speed and (1.15 for Celts, same as eagle warrior) in Imp you will get absolutely mopped. I’d say start with supplies and that’s it. Could even be available in the Dark Age, so Slavs actually benefit from it.

I like your take on the Burgundians. However I’d start with the FR first and see how they develop. Burgundians are very strong for sure, but only broken because of that tech.

I don’t like the suggestions for Burmese, since their elephants aren’t struggling and you won’t use them in 1v1 anyway. I don’t think they have any problems in team games, where their elephants are already good. Also giving them leather archer armor would be the same as giving Turks elite skirms and pikes. I think they should keep that weakness and get a buff to their early game (maybe a supplies change would be that buff already). I liked the infantry bonus starting in Dark and ending in Castle Age from the reddit post.

Nice from the reddit post.

It’s creative, but I’d rather have something else. I’d prefer something that makes their TC play more viable on open maps. Maybe scorpions in Feudal Age too? :thinking:

Goths already have super great late game and giving them FU hussar is a bit much. I think their late game transition is clear and shouldn’t change. Thumb ring yes, this would give them a very strong MAA into archers and xbow to CA gameplan. Like the reddit post, it’s good.

The Incas change is A LOT. I think the only thing they might need is a change to the team bonus like “farms regenerate 10food/min” but they are already solid.

Koreans should remain the only civ with full university. Also this would’t change them they are still boring to play on land maps. I’d rather have condos in Castle or something

Meh. Spanish need a buff but it shouldn’t be an eco buff. They are good on nomad style maps and they are bad on any other open map. I think they need a military bonus that doesn’t only kick in in Imperial Age and only applies to niche units.

34

Agree, that UT is a must change. Burgundians seem ok to me, now, except for that silly tech. It should only give access to the Flemish militia, leaving the vils as they are.

35

Would be pointless to research then. That’s like having to pay for an overall worse Condottiero.

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36

I don’t think that the wood nerf is needed, but the minus 50f is ok.

Yeah I agree.

I agree on the CKN nerf, but I don’t think that it’s necessary to change the vills bonus.

Why not include barracks too?

I would instead allow the allies train kipchaks at 15 more gold, and gives 5 gold to the cuman player for each kipchak trained, or so…

I agree on the nerf on perfusion, but I’m not convinced on the buffs. Their main weakness is that they don’t have an eco bonus at any stage of the game.

Their only eco lead is given by insta loom (which is nice but far from strong) and the infantry discount (and infantry isn’t the most flexible kind of unit).

I’m not sure that this would fix their problems, what about instant researching techs at the TC, like loom (not free)?

Pretty “meh” as a buff in my opinion…

But I onestly wouldn’t know how to help them… They aren’t a bad civ, but they lack identity, and I don’t see any reasons to prefer them over the other 2 meso civs.

Yeah there isn’t nothing to add here, let’s just hope that they implement this change so that we can close their topics.

I don’t think that the food nerf is necessary. The relic nerf for just castle age is nice, but onestly I don’t know if it’s that necessary, considering that you don’t always get 4 relics.

Though, if this will make disappear the “nerf the lithuanians” topics I’ll go with it.

I don’t know how the nerf on the eco bonus would impact their eco. I need some math…

Agree on El Dorado nerf.

I would go for 75 for now, even just 80 gold, there is always time to decrease it more.

Mmm I don’t know how much this will change them…

I think that they need something more consistent, like a free tech, or receiving xbow, or extending the goldless tech bonus to more techs.

I onestly doubt that this would make infantry more viable, but it wouldn’t hurt either trying.

37

It won’t if it happens (which don’t), people will still complain cuz aren’t capable to do some basic skill like get relics 11 (like cmon there are people complaining about the Aztecs and Burgundians team bonuses).
Even if Lithuanians never existed, the Teutons would be likely the new subject of complaints: OMG +2 melee armor on paladin should go cuz defeat the frankish one and Boyar, which happened months ago around here, if Teutons never received the armor then Cumans cuz too fast lol, and go and go (essentially a circlejerk).

38

Honestly, I think Flemish Revolution is fine. People will adapt.

The problem is, it’s a game-changer. People are used to fighting units with units, when the simple fact is, throwing units at a wall of flemish militia is a recipe for death.

But I just got done watching a high-level game, and once he realized flemish revolution was coming, he took some very simple countermeasures and was able to essentially neuter it. Basically all he did was Fortified Walls, a few castles, and some bombard cannons to kill the trebs behind the militia.

That’s basically all you need. Force them to play cautiously and protect their trebs and you’ve essentially sacrificed your entire eco for nothing.

IF it needs a change(and that’s a big IF), it should come via increased research time. By giving players, say, 30-60 seconds to prepare, rather than 10, you could much more easily shift your base from offense to defense.

But that’s it. Certainly no dramatic reworks. Flemish Revolution is a fun idea that shifts how players approach the game, which is wonderful.

39

No it isn’t, is either a best way to gift ELO (Recently Daut just punished someone who wents with Flemish rev using Teutonic Knights, was great) or just completely get an unfair advantage with Champion like units that destroy cavalry and essentially be “Pay to win”.
Isn’t a good design, be realistic.
Like cmon even the Extreme AI using that tech just resigns.

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40

That’s exactly the game I was referencing, actually; watch t90’s stream?

I definitely think people haven’t figured out how to play around it yet. I predict that in the long term, the difficulty of using it effectively will go up, and it’ll be rare to see at high elo games. Effectively, people will learn how it works and how to stop it, forcing people to be more creative with it.

But just like Teutonic Knights, that’s not always a bad thing. You rarely see Teutonic Knights in high elo games, but when you do, it’s exciting and fun.

Right now people are basically doing the most basic possible approach, and building to 200 pop with a fast imp strategy and dumping everything at once in an all-or-nothing approach, but there’s no reason that’s the ONLY way to play with it. I’m excited to see how strategy around it evolves as players get a handle on how to effectively use and counter it.