personally, i would like it if you get 100 that train free at a TC or something (while keeping the fact that you can pay to train more) this way you get the cheap military but a much slower power spike, however the fact that you don’t lose your eco might be a huge buff, so idk
Pretty massive buff, yeah. Atm you lose about 10000 food worth of villagers and get 17000 food and gold worth of flemish militia. If you account for lost production time, that’s more like a 20k total loss, even after getting the militia out of the deal.
100 free flemish militia would give you 8500 free resources with no downside.
I don’t think there’s much of a way to make this tech more ‘practical’. Its entire identity is built around the huge sacrifice and power spike. The only thing I could think of is maybe limiting it to only 100 villagers or something, but honestly, I think the fact you need to make it to imp with NO military is punishment enough for the all-in strat.
Again, if I were to see it nerfed, I’d see it happen via increased research time, with the warning to enemies going out at the start of the research. That way people have an increased amount of time to fortify. But the leeway on that would be pretty narrow. A minute’s warning might make the tech impotent.
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Yeah I agree, but in this case it’s a worth compromise in my opinion.
I personally don’t mind potentially +4 knights in castle age, but with +3 they would still have the highest attack, and you would get the +4 in imp, so if it makes other people sleep better at night, let them have it.
We can give them Eagle class and also some eagle armor, say 4 eagle armor. That means LS deal +2, 2HS and Champions deal +4. No other infantry unit deals bonus damage.
Giving 3 eagle armor, means Teutonic Knights deal bonus damage, which is good since they are same, but it is pointless for TK to be buffed against these units even more.
Too strong. Make it 40.
Okay! Acceptable.
It will make their win rate go down to 40%. Just nerf the numbers from 50 to 40 for both eco techs and stable.
Didn’t expect this from you. We need to maintain the civ’s identity.
The present accuracy of Fire Ships is 0%, how can it reduce accuracy below 0?
My idea, but worse. They will suck actually.
In addition to the present effect, it unlocks Kipchaks at Archery Ranges for Cumans. I feel this is best. We have 1 for infantry, 1 for cavalry, but none for archer type units.
I will say 75 but this is a great change in my opinion. Might make CA viable for them, which excited me.
Or simply, all infantry units (why do Slingers need armor?)
Lithuanians go down to 42%.
How do you apply this bonus?
Too strong actually. Make it 65F 75G.
Condos in castle age with the nowdays stats would be OP.
Also, onestly the whole “koreans are the only ones with a full uni tech tree and should stay that way” doesn’t make sense at all to me.
That is simply a coincidence, a civ isn’t unique because they have a complete branch of the tech. It’s like having a complete blacksmith, or a complete stable.
Byzantine and persians were the only ones with all eco upgrades, and then they added burgundians, which also have all eco upgrades.
Koreans are unique for their super towers, and their strong archers. The full uni simply complement that, and it would do the same for the Italians.
I mean, it’s not like the Italians and koreans would become 2 twin civs.
The SE argument isn’t much about buffing their early stages or buffing them to be good on arabia. I mean, the last one too, but it’s more complicated.
Italians are a late game civ, a civ that should age up faster and get to powerful late game composition thanks to their resources saved.
Now their strongest combo is arbs+BBC (tankier arbs, cheaper ages, ballistics, chemistry and BBC) the problem is, that their BBCs struggles to counter other BBCs with SE.
I mean, if I’m italian against franks, and I’m good enough to survive feudal and castle (which wouldn’t be easy…) and I get to imp with arbs and BBC, I can’t lose to franks BBC just because they have more range.
The whole concept of “quantity over quality” was good until the Italians still were a terrible land civs, that we were pushing for a earlier or stronger bonus. But now that ship has sailed, and the main advantage for Italians come from the uni, and you can’t have a uni discount without one the the 3 sacred trinity of the unit tech.
Also, portos has SE, and a BBC with the same gold discount (the wood in the late isn’t a problem) and a UT too. Turks have even more bonused for the BBC, so I don’t think it would be OP.
Yeah but then at least they need a nerf on their stats, because having suddenly 200 enemy military isn’t always easy to counter. Add to that they they have superb gunpowder and cavalry to add or switch into.
In my opinion, the new burgundians are fine. The new eco bonus may need a bit of a nerf, or a compensation, but let’s wait and observe it more before making any rush opinion.
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In 4 months I honestly don’t see no sign of people adapting. Because it’s basically impossible to do it, it’s very swift and can come at any moment, so it’s impossible to tech switch to counter it. Also preparing in advance for the tech is not an option because everything that’s good to counter FM gets rekt by fast paladins.
Daut’s game you mentioned can’t be taken as a general example. Teutons are the best civ to counter that strat: they have one of the few economies that can keep up with burgundians, great defences and probably the only unit that in low number and upgrades can deal with FM, without dying to fast paladins aswell. How many other civs can do the same? Probably none.
You say that FM shift the approach to the game, but is it a good shift? I absolutely don’t think so. Because it doesn’t require basically any skill to be played, on arena with burgundians you don’t even need to do a single transition from eco to military win the game, you just need to boom up to 200 pop in little more than 30 minutes (every 1200 ELO can do that), click a botton, research few upgrades and patrol everything forward. Amount of skill, eco balance, decision making required to do that? Very little.
I like this one, although It maybe should affect barracks while we are on it, so they also saves from the first barracks. Their infantry is not amazing, and they may need a lot of wood for ram pushes or the second TC, so…
Another option is copying the sarracen market discount and applying it to blacksmith: “blacksmiths cost 75 less wood”. This would save wood for archer/scout rushes, and you need a blacksmith for a siege workshop, so saving wood from it it is good for rams. Having fletching more affordable is also good for the TCs damage in case of raids. However, this buff mostly will be used only once per match
In large part that’s due to Burgundians being terrible for those four months, plus being a DLC civ, so even less play than average.
The thing is, you don’t NEED to meet them head on; a much smarter approach is to avoid it preemptively by attacking, instead of sitting waiting for them to hit pop cap.
Likewise, the teutonic knights are a fun unit that’s practical in this case, but almost ALL civs can instead fortify and defend until the wave of units splashes on your walls, and then counter attack.
The few without good walling options tend to be more aggressive instead, which is just as good.
Honestly, there’s lots of civs that can basically do that. Franks, for example; just boom for 30 minutes, build a load of fully upgraded paladins, and kill everything! Persians; build a load of war elephants, and kill everything!
The fun part of the tech is how it forces people to use hard defenses in ways that aren’t traditionally necessary. Most people build the bare minimum of walls, towers, and castles, but against flemish revolution you NEED hard defenses, and that different approach is very entertaining to me. It’s a whole new school of thought.
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Well this strat was played since day 1 of LotW, now it’s been buffed but it was brought into attention before the buff.
This is a good point but require a distinction between settings:
- On arabia this is partially true, early to mid game aggression is meta and people tends to get imp with larger army, so the impact of flemish revolution waves can be mitigated. On the other side, burgundians are not at all a weak civ in the early to mid game and the only possibility of the flemish revolution can prevent the opponent from teching into units such as pikemen and camels, that tend to be very useful if not mandatory vs burgundians in the mid game.
- On arena aggression between minute 30-32 (where FR tends to be clicked), require massive investment into castle age push or early imp shenanigans, that are not meta because they generally require to sacrifice eco in order to be pulled off, leaving the attacker in a dangerous position. On the other hand, burgundians as a civ are not weak at all to those pushes, due to amazing qualities such as early horse collar farming eco (that enables options such as light cav, great unit to have vs clown pushes, or an early imp themselves) and FU monks. While I agree that the best option vs burgundians is early aggression even on arena for most civs, the fact that your best option is a non meta option + burgundians not being expecially weak vs aggression, shows how broken they are. FR is a big part, probably the most relevant, in this.
Walls are a very expensive investment, you can’t even wall too much due to stone investment required, that often needs to be made preemptively (good luck walling last minute or quickwalling out 150 FM with trebs behind. Even if you somehow manage to do that you have to always preemptively float a lot of stone which is a big tax on your eco by itself) and doesn’t really do much vs other strategies that burgundians can pull off. In post imp it’s also generally impossible to wall all the eco cause resources tend to be pretty sparse and forward, bc you generally take the back ones before. So even if you survive first FM onslaught you lose map control and maybe access to crucial resourses. It’s not even a reliable strat due to how good FM is vs buildings.
And how many paladins or war elephants do you think you can make at minute 30 after a full boom? I assure you not enough to deal with FM. The only unit that can work are arbalest, that are destroyed by fast paladins.
There are reasons why people don’t do that. First off stone is scarce, you can do a limited amount fortifications in a game. Second, going to stone hurts your boom and unit production, and while it may even work vs flemish revolution, it puts you very behind if opponent adapts and do something else.
The thing is, it doesn’t take much to substantially weaken the power of FR.
Most cases I’ve seen involve 100%, all-out boom, with basically zero military. Against that, even a few dozen military units heavily reduces its power, forcing them to invest in things that are completely contrary to the primary build order.
So even just something as simple as building a siege tower and dropping a dozen scouts/archers into their virtually undefended eco will be enough to heavily subvert the ideal build order. This is furthered by the fact that this sort of boom usually sacrifices 100% of map control to achieve, allowing them free reign to do basically whatever they want, right up to their walls.
This is why my opinion is that any nerf should take the form of a longer research time on the technology, with the warning coming at the start of the research.
However, even without that change, players still get at least a minute of warning before FR truly hits. Flemish Militia move relatively slowly, and typically need to be moved all the way across the map to attack. This should give plenty of time to build hard defenses, given that stone walls build quite rapidly.
Is it a challenge? Yes, definitely. It’s a strong tactic. But it’s by no means impossible to defeat. Even better, the greatest weakness of the tech - hard defenses - is something that’s much easier to execute at lower elos. Building hard defenses is punished hardest at the highest elos, where every resource counts. At lower skill levels, players typically float significant resources and have more than enough to build hard defenses preemptively.
Honestly, I’m not so sure of that. Lacking the heavy bonus damage from halbs, plus accounting for splash damage, I could easily see persian war elephants absolutely crushing a flemish revolution. Franks might lose against it, but only because they’re cavalry.
But regardless, my point wasn’t that other civs can do equivalently well(after all, burgundians have a tech specifically for this tactic, logically they’ll do better at it than average), only that other civs can do the exact same things, and that the exact same counters still function against it. If your opponent has 80 frank paladins at your door, you don’t send out your 40 champions to fight them, you batten down the hatches, build some siege, and weather the storm.
And yet, sending 40 champions into 200 flemish militia is exactly what I’ve seen happen again and again. It’s frustratingly incompetent.
MBL score just was behind Viper score, MBL was using Samurais to defeat the flemish and that wasn’t enough lol, but great for a unit that can jump to 120 units and raid your eco, plus not being that bad
A couple of points I would discuss:
- I agree that Mamelukes need a discount, as the cataprhacts do. Why don’t reduce the cost for both units, instead of the elite upgrade of catas? Cataprhacts also need a TT buff for me
- I like SE for Italians, very needed. There is one more think with this civ, which is the elite GC upgrade. It is too overpriced for what it does, by a huge amount. Either it should cost much less, or it should give some larger advantage (several archer UUs take +1 range). The first option sounds easier to me, but I would be fine aslo with the second one.
Because it’s the elite+logistica the problem. The unit cost just 10 food more than a knight, but in the lat game that’s not a problem. The problem is that to be a versitile unit, they need those 2 upgrades.
As for the TT that’s an argument for almost all UUs, but it doesn’t seem to me that they penalize catas particularly.
Logistica is extremely expensive, almost unaffordable for 1v1. I think that if you make the cataprhacts cheaper, you could see them a bit more often, especially in castle age and in 1v1.
Logistica would remain a TG tech, similarly to paladins, SO or slav UT, which are rarely researched in 1v1.
But maybe it is just that I do not feel the cataprhacts that good since the die vs both the meta strategies…
Here’s the big secret to the cataphract:
You don’t need the elite upgrade to absolutely dominate most Imperial age infantry. Logistica on it’s own will do fine. In fact in almost all cases logistica >> elite upgrade for your first upgrade. This is because if logistica is not >> over elite then chances are very high you are fighting a unit like arbalest toward which you should not have built cataphracts in the first place.
You should only get the elite upgrade if you’ve happened to use the elite cataphract cost-effectively in another fight and have a bunch left over which now need to fight things like heavy cavalry.
Otherwise just skip cataphract and build other units.
He had literally no walls. That’s like sending archers into huskarls and complaining they’re broken.
idk, this will buff Arambai as well and they aredefinitely strong right now
that is too minor, i dont think that such small changes should be made. it takes away how players used to play the chinese civ in early game. you basically have 1 will less working for the creation time of 1 new vill.
i personally would love to see the masonry tech available for aztecs and vietnamese.
And then lose tgat advantage when you research loom. Most Chinese now research loom at rhe start of thd game. With this change you lose that. So you’re basically a villager behind where you are now
no, because you can’t create a villager after loom because you have no food. with your change, you could create 1.
right now you have no food and research loom during that first villager. you 6 villagers, everyone else 4 villagers (because they made one instead). you have 6 villagers though and they gather food from sheeps to get a villager while you’re doing loom.
after the change you can create a villager right away putting you at 6 and your opponents at 4. but you both still have to research loom.