If you look at the “lance” on a steppe lancer, it’s a lot more spear-like than a jousting lance.
Most of the images I’ve found online seem to classify lance steppe cavalry into two categories, those using a shield and those using both hands for the lance, though most of these lances seem quite spear-like. Some of the shielded ones are also using a lance that has a sort of pommel in the back, perhaps for counterbalance, as they had to use their weapon one-handed. Also, some of the unshielded ones seem to have a bow as a side weapon more often, although perhaps bows and swords were common side weapons for all of them. Maybe even the shield was optional.
My point is, I don’t see why thrusting with such weapons would have to be slow, even if they’re a bit tip heavy, they don’t seem to be overwhelmingly so, and that’s what counterbalances are for anyway.
As you can see, a tip-heavy weapon that “looks like a Spear”, but is not actually a Spear.
It is a very specialized variant, to the point taht you could not effectively use it as a Spear.
A Spear has a flexible shaft, while a Lance has a rigid one, because it is designed to break on impalement, which cause terror on the battlefield.
From China, all the way to Spain, all Lances shared very similar designed. Even the original Lances, invented in Persia, which demanded 2 hands because couching hooks on armour had not been invented yet, were of a similar design.
Used for show, like the wrought iron helmets of jousting Knights, which would be too heavy for a real battlefield too, aswell as the excessive barding skirts that would actually trip the horse on a real battle.
for the context of the game its a giant lance regardless of what it was or wasnt in history. otherwise the unit wouldnt have +1 range. same for the kamayuk…
in the same way that a magyar huszar has one of the longest weapons in the game(possibly longer than a steppe lancer’s??), but for all intents and purposes its a short spear…
i think ive seen these vids before , reminds me that troy total war is possibly the only game im aware of where i think spears are given decent stats vs infanty compared to other melee weapons
that reminds me, the kamayuk kills camels and knights at the same rate… very stupid… again a cavalry counter that is better at fighting another cavalry counter than it is at fighting the cavalry it was intended to counter… effing aoe logic with its power units
From what I’ve seen at least in jousting, more flexible wood such as pine tends to break more easily than a hardwood like ash, but yes I’d say for any battle purposes using harder wood would be better, and indeed it would break in a heavy charge.
Nonetheless, I see your point about lances being most likely heavy-tipped, even if it doesn’t show in most illustrations…
I’m pretty sure most weapons are oversized in game just so they are easily recognizable at the zoom levels people normally play. Just take a look at a karambit for example, they are absolutely huge in game to the point of appearing pretty much like short curved swords, but that doesn’t mean they should be slow or do 14 attack.
if anything your point is specifically invalidated by this…
i specifically mentioned the huszar because it has a giant weapon but a decent attack speed because it doesnt have range IN A GAME . the steppe lancer and kamayuks have effectively long range weapons IN THE GAME and thus imo it is ok if they dont have high attack speeds…
generally IN A GAME range and attack speed are inversely proportional
Ranged units have a much greater chance to apply damage than Melee units, due to their Ranged advantage.
This mean they are often balanced by having much lesser Attack and Attack Speed scores.
It is also worth mentioning that Ranged units can oftern stack attacks on single targets much more efficiently than Melee units.
They still have a lower Attack Speed bonus than Japanese Infantry, for example.
Yeah, I remember how broken steppe lancers were on release, especially when exploiting the stacking mechanic. That was made a bit harder with the pathing changes though.
Well I see what you mean, but I think I agree with the main topic of this thread which is that the steppe lancer should be buffed slightly so it’s viable again, and probably a DPS buff would be the easiest, and an attack speed upgrade would be the easiest way to accomplish that.
I’m convinced though, that from a historical accuracy perspective, those lances might not be moving as fast as a spear.
I honestly think SLs are OK now. They are a Raiding Cavalry unit that is good at killing Villagers even behind quick walls.
Raiding Cavalry is something I wish more civs had, and I understand that this may not be to the taste of most people, because all SL civs already have Hussar, which does a similar job (though not as well, to be honest) while not even costing Gold.
They could be OK indeed. One steppe lancer is worth ~2 militia, and you might just need one in a raid to deny some quick walls. Maybe then they’ll always be seen in very small numbers, which could be alright.
Actually, I often use them to raid Wood lines and Mines, having a Gold patch between the SL and the Vill, does not save that Vill like it would do if it was a Knight, for example.
It is the Elite steppe Lancer that is basically useless, since by the time you get it, SLs can no longer really raid effectively.
As a replacement for Knight Rush, however, they can often kill a few more Vills than Knights can, for example, unless you want to raid underneath a TC, at which point the Knights are better.
only raiding cannot justify IMO. So every game SL will just feature a few in 1v1 to sneak in. TG not needed as Archer got range. I think at least they have to be capable in some battle situations.
I don’t think any of those buffs ideas would hurt, but IMO the really missed opportunity (“problem”) are the ESL stats.
ESL should be significantly more resource-efficient than Cavalier. That would allow for interesting cavalry fast-imp strats. (Compare with fast-imp arbalests.)
As things stand ESL face of about equally with equal resources.
SL in castle age already have a decent number of use-cases. They could have a few more use-cases if they got a micro-buff, but shouldn’t be buffed too much.
