What about an anti-trash bonus?
Units have bonus damage against Armor classes, not units (skirmisher, hussar, halb) and âTrashâ armor class doesnât exist
3 Likes
ofc this should be implemented
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I still think the +1 range gives them a unqiue identity, they just need to be buffed enough so you can actually take advantage of it efficiently (like microing etc)
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it could always be implemented. people complain militia line isnât seen enough, what if they implemented the âTrash armorâ and gave those 2 unit lines bonus vs it.
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yeah been a good idea, but it might be too shiney for the devs to accept such a change⊠think it would help the infantry specialist civs a lotâŠ
âoh you want to shield your arbs with pikes, my mali champskarls will slice em even fasterâ
Micro a +1 range unit is not that easy. Still I am not convinced that a simple stat buff work. Just to have an idea: how many of them should we need to beat cost effectively a group of knights?
I mean, approximately, just to understand what the critical mass should be
With micro I think 25 should be able to beat knights cost efficiently. Of course micro here is not to the same like at cavalry archers, since the whole point is that while most of your units can hit the enemy, only a few knights can hit your army meanwhile. Regarding zero micro (when you just send both into battle), I think it is better to have that number as high as possible, probably around 60-70
In imp the elite should be compared to cavaliers
Still 60 is al lot. If we want to maintain the role around the distinctivity of the +1 range, we should fix this number and then tune the stats accordingly. Btw, I am more for changing role.
However:
- ensure that SLs can easily outrun knights (speed tuning)
- fix a number x, where x SLs can beat cost effectively knights (with limited micro)
- balance the SLs stats to get to x
I think x should be around 20-25, 30 at most. Imo, microing is not that trivial. As you said, it is more like the capability of fighting from multiple rows. It is different from micro.
That is why I do not completely get what you really mean âwithâ and âwithoutâ micro.
Micro: run and then fight for 5 second and then repeat. This way while all of your s lancers will be able to hit the knights, some of them even twice, from the knights only some on the front can fight. This is a way more efficient fighting than just sending them to battle where +1 range only gives them the advantage to stand in 2 rows
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Like I said, this kind of microing could give steppe lancers a good identity I think
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Maybe the numbers should be tweaked a bit, I still think my original ideas are fundementally good suggestions:
Do you agree with this procedure?
If so, it could just be tested to see what x your proposals generate. And ofc we should agree on the right x.
2 Likes
Yes I do, but we should define what limited microing means. Because I donât agree if it means zero micro and just patrol both troops into each other.
In my opinion, the knight line should be removed from Mongols, Cumans, and Tatars, and the Steppe Lancer should get 1/1 armour, faster rate of attack (2.0 should be fine), and a cost change to 60 food 60 gold, and an increase in HP to 80 for the lancer and 100 for the elite version.
This could go alongside a civilisation bonus for the Cumans giving their steppe lancers +1/+1 melée and pierce armour to counteract the loss of the Paladin.
What would this serve? It would make more civilisations unique, wherein we have a few âeagle civilisationsâ, and we would have a few more âlancer civilisationsâ, and so the game becomes more interesting.
5 Likes
I agree with the general idea and I love uniqueness. So my answer is I like this.
As positive thing, I would add that all the SL civs are not knights civs. So that would not hurt too much. Also, for cumans, you may add an imperial SL upgrade after the elite one.
As negative implication, these civs would be penalized when playing in the pocket position of TGs, where knights are a must.
However my feeling is that the community is quite scared about this idea, (discussed in the past), so I do not expect many other positive comments to your proposals.
I think with the HP and pierce armour buff to steppe lancers, they will be a viable alternative to knights even in castle age with the higher HP and armour. I know people are scared of this idea and itâs not completely new, but people are scared of changes in general. As it is, we donât see players who play Aztecs, Mayans, or Incas complain that they have no knights.
Speaking of another upgrade to elite steppe lancer, I think that would be a bit too much. Elite Steppe lancers in numbers are even without buffs make for a very dangerous army, and with the extra armour, civ bonus, and HP make a further upgrade to an imperial steppe lancer way too overpowered.
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Thatâs a huge rework of the civ and I dont think it would be balanced to have a 15 attack 1 range 5/6 armor with a very short creation speed with 1.67 speed. Even if it does only have 120 health. People hate goths as is and their units arent nearly as tanky or mobile.
Even in castle age it would be problematic because unlike goth perfusion, steppe husbandry is a castle age tech.
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I forgot creation time, I admit. In that case we could match the creation time to the knights (30 seconds) and reduce Steppe Husbandryâs effect to probably 30-40%. The rest of it should be fine because there are no knights for the civilisation, and yes, it would be a rework of the civilisation, and thatâs what I am suggesting.
I can also make blanket statements like âI donât think it would be balanced to have 18 attack 5/7 armour with 180 health and 1.5 speedâ, and yet we have Paladins which are indeed balanced. Hating a civilisation doesnât mean itâs imbalanced. Goths are for the most part balanced. I donât think weaker knights who have extra range and are slightly faster are going to be all that unbalanced in a world where there are no knights for these civilisations, but even what I say is speculation. We would know the reality only when players can play with such a reorganisation.
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Oh Iâm not saying goths are imbalanced. Goths lose out on the final armor upgrade and lack a lot of other options. Their units pretty much lose 1v1 but they donât allow you to fight 1v1 so yeah
Definitely glad you recognize needing to rebalance training and steppe husbandry. Though frankly I think that with your new stats it would be a bit of a nerf overall to do this redesign