[Balance] Genitour

Berbers have only a single design flaw, besides that I’d consider them a great civ.

Genitour has no place in the game as it stands, no matter how cheap you’d make it- it’ll lead to an akward situation, it lacks identity and a purposefull role, the civ already has Camel Archer to deal with CA, and a FU Skirmisher to deal with Archers, we’re ending with nothing but a mounted gimmick.
The Anti-CA position is way too inflated in the Berber’s tech tree.

Possible solutions:

  1. Remove access to Elite Skirmisher (just like Turks), yet also make Berbers Cavalry discount apply to Genitour.

  2. Remove access to Elite Skirmisher, while also doing a shuffle in Berbers bonuses, Genitour will no longer be a team bonus, and therefore easily adjusted and buffed, [Kasbah becomes a team bonus (20% instead of 25%) if we insist, or any other TB / UT, that’s a subject for another post]

  3. Having both Elite Skirmishers and Genitours, yet having Genitour not required any Elite upgrade, and rather just get the Elite bonus once reaching Imperial.

  4. Minor stats change, to fully differentiate between the two/three. Less damage output, 2 instead of 3, However bigger bonus vs. Archers.(+6 instead of +4)

  5. Minor stats change, having flat 5 pierce armor instead of 4 which they share with the Elite Skirmisher. But lower accuracy. (80% instead of 90%)

  6. Your idea: __________________________________

Which would you pick?

I’d personally go with 5, Elite Skirmisher would still be viable despite how strong Genitour are going to be, being a easier solution when facing Archers when you already have a mass for Feudal Skirmishers, or rather when facing civs that are heavy on Camels which shred Genitours and quite meh vs. normal Skirmishers.
Genitour now relies on better micro, since the difference between 80% and 90% accuracy is noticable at long range auto-attack.

One thing for sure, Berbers deserve a viable Genitour, and there isn’t a better time to address it than these days where the meta is so single dimensional, based on Crossbows almost exclusively.

Thanks for reading.

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  1. Remove access to Genitour :upside_down_face:

Just give Genitours to some civs that can actually use the unit, eg Portuguese, Turks.


i kinda like the option of missing elite skirm. maybe even go one step further: remove skirm altogether and make some kind of feudal genitour?


Forgot to add +1 range to make them on par with Archers.


It’s quite tricky when it comes to Turks, they dont have an efficient Anti-Archer unit (Skirms and Onager) for a reason. (Scouts are inefficient economically, food is too precious at this point)

Overall I’m not a fan of just giving Genitours to all mediterranean civs. Berbers need this unit for the sake of their identity, they’re stack with barely any bonus or unique feature. Their midgame is too dry and bland.

Oh wow you went bold. Berbers do miss some interesting Feudal feature, on Dark Age they have the fast moving vills which is more than enough, arguably one of the best bonuses imo. Their Feudal is just half-way to Vikings bonus, minus the Infantry HP buff. And unlike Magyars they dont have any discount.

With that being said, not all civs should have an extra-ordinary identity feature at every single stage of the game, Japanese are almost super generic in Castle Age.

What stats would you give this Feudal Genitour unit? It might end up being way too strong. The whole concept of a pseudo-CA unit can be very abusive and unpunishable by Feudal units, you’d have to make only Scouts against it. Genitours would abuse vills so badly.
I’m afraid it’s impossible to be implemented, though I might be wrong.
The only way I see this working is having the Genitour have 0 pierce armor, which barely makes sense.

  1. Will this be enough? unlike pierce armor range on a mobile unit is less meaningfull.
  2. Generally in AOE the CA/mounted version of an unit always has less range. (including Plumed Archers)
  3. I’d arguably incrase their movement speed/ turn rate and/or decrease the collusion size / frame delay to make them more playable, we want to encourage micro play rather than another version of a generic Skirmisher.

i was just brainstorming
i like the idea of replacing elite skirm though

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As Berbers with all those options going, would be super easy to exploit them. Opponent already will know Berbers player is going to go all mounted. In current meta, in Feudal, you can go whatever you want. Spanish often faces awkward situation with their limited Archer. Giving one more range would make them unique/best Genitour among every other civs out there. However, Genitour in general not good. I also believe slight buff in bonus damage needed.

I think stats change is the way to go. I like the idea here but there is one fundamental problem with what you propose. Genitours would be even weaker vs pikes then. The unit has speed, yes, but to micro pikes down like cav archers you need to invest a lot of attention and also you need quite some units. And lowering their atk would make that even worse. If anything they should be better vs pikes imo.

I think this one is tricky. They are a better unit than skirmishers once they are fully upgraded, but they also have more weaknesses as a trade off for more mobility.

+1 pierce armor could be really interesting in my opinion, but I don’t know how strong that would be, especially as a team bonus

I remember Sandy Petersen finding it funny that Berbers had Genitours, because apparently the Berbers fought the Genitours and it should be some other civ that gets them. I wouldn’t mind Genitours being given to some other civ because of that.

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Tbh Berber introduced the style of warfare that led to the genitour. So in general I dont think a unit swap is needed

Also, Spain and Portugal have enough unique stuff

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Tell us you have no idea what you’re talking about without saying you have no idea what you’re talking about…

And then you have the simplicity to laugh at someone that gave a recommendation

Way to go buddy :clap::clap::+1::+1:

In the same way Viet don’t really need the imp skirm, Berbers don’t really need the genitour. If anything it makes much more sense giving it to another civ.

As you even said yourself it overlaps with cam archers.and then you recommend making it even less of a generalist and better at fighting archers?

Your ideas are literally all over the place? Free instant kasbah is somehow balanced against lack of genitour!? :rofl::joy::rofl::rofl::joy: And you laughed at someone else… Wow


We can increase the damage vs. Spearline units from +2 to +5.

Exactly, the fact it’s a team-bonus makes everything much harder. I really find this +1 pierce armor bonus effective.



I wasn’t laughing at his idea, it was actually a brilliant one.
I’m all for removing useless content, the game already has enough gimmicks.

Viet are poorly designed civ, also having arguably the worst eco bonus in the game alongside Burgundians and Sicilians. (design wise) Viet difinitely deserve a redesign, Imperial Skirms as a team bonus was always questionable, which I dont mind that much, and their useless Elephants that should get a whole rework.
I’m not saying Berbers NEED THIS EXACT UNIT , they need AN UNIT or rather AN UNIQUE FEATURE at the early part of the game, since they feel too generic anywhere from Feudal Age to early Castle Age. It can be Genitours or a bonus to their Female Vills.

You’re enjoying the show aren’t you?

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