[Balance] Houfnice

[AllergicTable49]

@Martinurello

but what if bohemians lack of Capped Ram and this new houfnice compensate it

I appreciate this attempt. But it doesnt solve the problem - being absurdly OP on closed maps. The whole tech tree of Bohemians is built around protecting this unit, it’s an undeniable win condition, which strategically cant exists in a game. A redesign is needed, not just for this unit, but this whole civ.

@timecloud5713

The word you mean is probably something like “unoriginal” or something

It’s an excessive attention to details to a degree where you no longer care about the picture as a whole. Being overwhelmed by the urge to macro-manage the raw organic reality.

Obviously I’m not refering to a medical-psychiatric diagnosis.

It’s not about being original or not.

@Lepigozzus

Would it work? No idea

That’s an interesting idea, not gonna lie.
I wouldn’t mind seeing this being implemented, however it’d require some changes to Bohemians tech tree, they’re already have heavy emphasis on Castle Age, we can’t inflate this stage of the game with too much bonuses and gimmicks.

@CactusSteak2171

Isn’t the hussite wagon supposed to be their siege of choice in the castle age?

That’s an interesting idea.

@TwerDefender

b) why insult people who actually have OCD?

For real? PC police not here please, I borrowed this “medical diagnosis” to describe an artistic and strategic flaw in design. Redefinition is a very common tool in an intellectual and poetic discussion.

@TwerDefender

now to the actual post:

Thank you

@TwerDefender

why would anyone even make this upgrade?

Pay attention, again, it’s not an upgrade, it’s a replacement, a whole different unit.

@TwerDefender

while no longer having access to BBC to snipe trebs

Like half the civs?
However they’re still supirior to Onagers noticably, frame delay, movement speed, turn rate, collusion size, projectile speed, and range. (It has also more damage)

[Martinurello]

@AllergicTable49

But it doesnt solve the problem - being absurdly OP on closed maps

I meant using your new stats (60 attack, 9 range), but adding extra bonus against stone defences and faster projectile… This way, the Houfnice have less range, but is faster, make more damage and its shots are more difficult to evade.
Against regular BBC you are in inferior position until you reach the range to shot. Once the enemy BBC is in your range the faster projectile do the job.
Against Castles, ok, Castle outrange you, but you should use Hussite wagon to absorbe damage. Maybe could have a bonus against Castle armor class, making it more unique (Tarkan and Petard are the only units with bonus against castle).

[TommoChocolate]

@AllergicTable49

OCD; having a tendency towards excessive orderliness, perfectionism, and great attention to detail.

As I thought, you don’t know what it means.

@timecloud5713

The word you mean is probably something like “unoriginal” or something

What they mean is that they don’t have a coherent argument in favour of their suggestion - at least, not beyond “Houfnice is OP in some situations” - and they’re trying to hide that fact behind exaggerated nonsensical language.

@AllergicTable49

poetic discussion.

Poetry is ambiguous, emotive and irrational, the very opposite of what discussion should be.

[SMUM15236]

@AllergicTable49

Historically not all BBC were designed to face Castles or rather big fortifications

Historically every single BBC of AoE were designed to face castle and towers.

@AllergicTable49

however in a strategy game there is no room for such concepts everthing must be viable yet counterable

At this rate I think the best way is to remove every single military units from the game except Militia which costs 50% less than as it is now. No other military units, no more upgrades. Very viable yet very counterable.

[Lepigozzus]

@AllergicTable49

That’s an interesting idea, not gonna lie.
I wouldn’t mind seeing this being implemented, however it’d require some changes to Bohemians tech tree, they’re already have heavy emphasis on Castle Age, we can’t inflate this stage of the game with too much bonuses and gimmicks.

I know, but if you remove mangonel line you have to provide an alternative in castle age, now we could make chemistry not necessary, but would be strange for a non-castle gunpowder unit.
But was just a crazy idea, because I’m still waiting some aoe gun that works and can’t be dodged as easily as mangonel shots, as I said obviously you cut the damage or it becomes OP.
Scorpions aoe is pathetic honestly and they can’t fire at ground.

[CactusSteak2171]

I think Bohemians should keep mangonels, just remove onager like for Turks if you want houfnice to be more onager like.

[Lepigozzus]

I suppose it could work as Onager upgrade replacement for the imperial age then.
Why not. 8 range then.

[thieftdp8498]

houfnice should have 20 range so it can snipe trebs and run away with speed of eagle warrior but only does 5 melee damage that way its fair

[Lepigozzus]

Now I need to test your idea in the scenario editor just to laugh seeing the Houfnice guy run that fast. Brilliant 11

[FlexedPigeon206]

@AllergicTable49

This change makes it less of an Alpha unit on closed maps, Bohemians still have an amazing composition there (Trash-Monks anyone). This unit actually loses to normal BBC, however much more viable (no need to tech into it) and deadly against Siege/Archers since I increased the damage (or rather the radius to what it previously had)
Now this unit plays a role, rather than a doomsday weapon.

That’s just a worse Onager. With 3 less range and “lose against normal BBC”, this is not “deadly against siege”.
Also, why do they need another strong unit against archer? They already have heavy scorp, onager, UU.

[CactusSteak2171]

It’s kind of an insta-imp onager, which is definitely something that can be useful and that would have made people cry at release anyway I feel Current houfnice is already good agaisnt archers as well.

[ZeroEinna]

Italian Bombards require more micro as they are, this would be too much. It also feels a bit like a play on the Burgundian Bombard Cannon.

[laserbear25]

OCD; having a tendency towards excessive orderliness, perfectionism, and great attention to detail.

That’s not what OCD means…

The word you’re looking for is pedantic.

Regardless, for the reasons others have stated, I don’t think this is a good change. For balance Houfnice just need another minor reduction in blast damage radius down to 0.75 maybe and perhaps either -5 HP or -1 pierce armour, in my opinion.

[FurtherLime7936]

@laserbear25

Regardless, for the reasons others have stated, I don’t think this is a good change. For balance Houfnice just need another minor reduction in blast damage radius down to 0.75 maybe and perhaps either -5 HP or -1 pierce armour, in my opinion.

I think just take away Siege Engineers, they have extra speed+armor+HP+better attack, There must be some drawback here.

[Davyman3583]

@FurtherLime7936

I think just take away Siege Engineers, they have extra speed+armor+HP+better attack, There must be some drawback here.

A civ that relies so much on siege shouldn’t lose siege engineers imo. Rather keep nerfing hofnice by further reducing the blast radius to 0.7 or so.

What makes the civ feel a little unfair rn is that houfnice is kinda archer counter while it was probably intended that wagons fulfill this role. If hofnice doesn’t kill as many ranged units at once the civ is totally fine (except for the imp UT which is just completely useless and should be replaced).

[laserbear25]

except for the imp UT which is just completely useless and should be replaced

Would you think it valuable to swap round the ages the UTs are available in?

[Davyman3583]

@laserbear25

Would you think it valuable to swap round the ages the UTs are available in?

Imo a monk UT needs to be cheap as it will mostly be used in low eco situations. The very design of current imp UT just does not make sense the way I see it. Swapping the UTs can be a start to make tje monk one better (and with that maybe also nerfing their gunpowder units) but along with that I think the monk UT effect needs to be reworked completely.