Balance suggestions for april patch

[Davyman3583]

@ScantDegree4994

Byzantine paladins are stronger than farimba cavaliers because they have better stats that actually matter: hp and armor. The point of paladins is being a tank or a raiding unit that stays alive in your economy forever, not a glass cannon. Try to make farimba cavaliers+ranged units vs byza paladin+ranged units and see yourself how hard the cavaliers get rekt.

Farimba Cavalier beat Byzantine Paladin (when directly compared +3 attack, -20 HP, +0,1 attack speed and way cheaper/faster upgrades). You’re right when it comes to mixed armies with archers, though: Byzantines have better archers and paladins fare better vs archers than any sort of cavalier (including Malians).

@OliveCereal4714

Sareacens: camels have +1/+2 attack in castle/imperial age. (that, or camels have +10 hp, but I preffer the first option).
Mameluke creation time reduced 2 s

Would be nice for sure but I don’t think that solves any of the Saracens problems. I feel like Sarcens success is really dependant on the civ matchup. If you are up against cav civs their camels are already fine in castle age and really strong in imp. Against archer civs they are okay in imp because of good siege and FU skirms. In castle age, though, you probably end up fighting archers vs archers while having no bonus affecting fighting stats nor a consistent eco bonus. Worst case imo is vs. meso civs and thats where I think they clearly underperform compared to a lot of civs. Camels wont do much, archers wont do much once opponent has second armor upgrade. Hand canonners can work in certain situations but usually wont work either I guess (at least on open maps). Mamelukes are rather awkward, too. That 24 frame delay makes them inmicroable in castle age. I had a few saracens vs aztecs games recently and figured your best bet is going all in knights and crossbows in castle age and dont even try to get to imp because that composition wont work then.

So maybe just give them cavalier. Maybe give them halbs to allow for siege+halb pushes. Or change the Mameluke a bit. Not sure how, though. Balacing them seems really difficult, Mamelukes had so many changes over the time (both buffs and nerfs) but still do not appear to be well balanced.

@OliveCereal4714

Khmer: lose crop rotation, or maybe handcart

I agree that they need some kind of nerf but I think thats not a good idea. Khmer are designed to boom and go cavalry and siege. Right now they are so strong because they have arguably the best eco in the game, strong units and a flexible tech tree. Imo the last part should be changed a bit. Maybe take arbalest away again but more importantly I think they should lose halbedier. They arent an infantry civ anyways and it would pressure them more to actually make heavy cav in castle age instead of going for the ultra greedy boom and defend until the death ball starts rolling or going for a siege+pike push.

@JonOli12

FU means Fully Upgraded, which would mean they have Paladin with Bloodlines, Husbandry, Platemail Armour and Blast Furnace.
Please do not use FU improperly, or else it loses all meaning.

Indeed it is not uncommon to speak of FU for a particular unit or time period, for instance, Italians have FU cavalier and Saracens have FU knights in castle age. You will see pro players and casters using these terms sometimes.

@Hectornauta

Lithuanians: Tower shields giving +1 pierce armor to the pike line is not very useful because they lack plate mail. This tech should be changed.

Agreed. At least its too expensive right now. Although its nice for skirms you dont go that often into halbs with Lithuanians I guess because you intend to crush enemy heavy cav with your own and you still have monks vs camels. Faster spears/pikes are still nice in castle age to secure relics but I dont see using them halbs in imp too often, maybe vs masses of heavy camels. Apart from that Lithuanians seem well balanced to me.

@CactusSteak2171

@JonOli12

Even the Kamandaran tech is already overly expensive

For what it does it’s almost a gift.

Exactly! Playing Persians you just go crazy on booming and start making cav in castle age. You try to annoy a bit, kill someting if you can and if you see pikes you just run away and while getting to imp you get Kamandaran and afterwards its pretty easy to engage. Because of Persian economy that strat is really difficult to counter. Imo best UT in the game right now. I suggest to move it to imp and double the cost. It doesnt matter whether Persians archers are rather weak from a stats perspective, its just about killing halbs which is pretty easy even with trashbows. And it comes in sooo fast. Should be a late game option not an early imp option.

[JonOli12]

Saracens and their Mamelikes are avbsolutely fine, and need no changes. Their Archer rush with anti-Building damage is even OP.

[UpmostRook9474]

Some possible…

1. change Persians from Muslim to Mid-Asian set officially.

2. monk-related unique tech like Madrasah, Inquisition and Orthodoxy should get some adjustments. They are really rare to be researched now.

3. add slinger to Aztec and Mayan and get the benefit from Atlatl and Obsidian Arrows. this will not change the balance since both of them have good archers.

4. Huns get the steppe lancer.

Some hard to become true…

1. Byzantines: add bloodline and blast furnace, then make cataphracts 100/130 HP (110/150 now) and 9/10 attack (9/12 now). Maybe remove the bombard cannon or ram for balance.

2. Goths: add Plate Mail Armor and make Huskarls’ pierce armor 4/6 (6/8 now). Maybe remove the hand cannoneer for balance.

3. Persians: add the bracer and remove the crossbowmen.

4. Japanese: add the bombard cannon and change Kataparuto to Bushido: increase samurais pierce armor or running speed.

[JonOli12]

@UpmostRook9474

add slinger to Aztec and Mayan and get the benefit from Atlatl and Obsidian Arrows. this will not change the balance since both of them have good archers

Absolutely not, as Slingers are an counter to Infantry, and Aztecs hacs have Champions with Garland Wars, and Mayans have great Archers for that. Slingers should remain unique t Incas.

@UpmostRook9474

Huns get the steppe lancer.

Why? They do nt need even in the slightest.

@UpmostRook9474

Goths: add Plate Mail Armor and make Huskarls’ pierce armor 4/6 (6/8 now). Maybe remove the hand cannoneer for balance.

Please no.

@UpmostRook9474

Persians: add the bracer and remove the crossbowmen.

Please no, unless it comes with a huge discount to Kamandaran Archers, omething silly like 30 Wood cost, as Archers are WAY too weak of a unit.

[CactusSteak2171]

@Davyman3583

they have arguably the best eco in the game

Their bonus is still inferior to Slavs or Aztecs one, and only the fact it’s a trickle allows them to shine. And depending on the map, many civs can have a better eco than Khmer.

@Davyman3583

I think they should lose halbedier. They arent an infantry civ anyways

All Paladin/Elephant civs need Halberdiers, because mirrors would be just endless cav spam until one get a slight edge and snowball without counterplay.

@Davyman3583

it would pressure them more to actually make heavy cav in castle age

It’s not rare to see Knights from Khmer players.

@Davyman3583

but I dont see using them halbs in imp too often

Halbs are a really common unit (ie.Khmer ones lack squires and plate mail armor and yet they see some play. Heck, Tatars ones are also used) It’s not -1/-1 armor that will make them unusable.

@UpmostRook9474

monk-related unique tech like Madrasah, Inquisition and Orthodoxy should get some adjustments. They are really rare to be researched now.

Well, because Monk rushes happen before you get a Castle up. You can tweak them all you want it’s not going to help.

@UpmostRook9474

add slinger to Aztec and Mayan and get the benefit from Atlatl and Obsidian Arrows. this will not change the balance since both of them have good archers.

Oh, yeah, even less reasons to use Jaguars! And discounted Slingers on Mayan? This + El Dorado = god.

@UpmostRook9474

Huns get the steppe lancer.

Hmmm why? They lived century before the current Steppe lancer civs so it doesn’t feel like it’s needed.

@UpmostRook9474

Byzantines: add bloodline and blast furnace, then make cataphracts 100/130 HP (110/150 now) and 9/10 attack (9/12 now)

So basically you buff all Byzantine cavalry except Cataphracts. Why?

@UpmostRook9474

Goths: add Plate Mail Armor and make Huskarls’ pierce armor 4/6 (6/8 now). Maybe remove the hand cannoneer for balance

Ie. Goths become even more mono-spam. Giving the last cav armor sounds better imo

@UpmostRook9474

Japanese: add the bombard cannon and change Kataparuto to Bushido: increase samurais pierce armor or running speed.

Kataparuto Trebs are too much fun to use to be scrapped from the game, not to mention they are stronger than BBC (bulkier and deal more damage)

[UpmostRook9474]

@JonOli12

Please no, unless it comes with a huge discount to Kamandaran Archers, omething silly like 30 Wood cost, as Archers are WAY too weak of a unit.

You can compare the data of the archers with the bracer and the crossbowmen without the bracer. The former is just 5 HP less and 8 sec more for training than later. It will solve the problem that somebody said Kamandaran too strong and give Persians full upgraded cavalry archers.

@CactusSteak2171

Well, because Monk rushes happen before you get a Castle up. You can tweak them all you want it’s not going to help.

I just want to remind the development team that they are worth some adjustment. How to adjust is not my business.

@CactusSteak2171

Hmmm why? They lived century before the current Steppe lancer civs so it doesn’t feel like it’s needed.

So there were no nomad lancers in 5th century? At the beginning of introducing the steppe lancers, one of the most popular topic is giving them to Mongols and Huns too. I just state the possibility and Huns lancers would be the only one that pure full upgraded without any bonus.

@CactusSteak2171

So basically you buff all Byzantine cavalry except Cataphracts. Why?

Adding bloodline or blast furnace or both of them make the paladin, camel and halberdiers more decent, and Cataphracts doesn’t need since their strength. It focus on defense so siege rams and bombard cannons may not be needed after the buff.

@CactusSteak2171

Ie. Goths become even more mono-spam. Giving the last cav armor sounds better imo

The develop team is seemed to try to make Goths be an pure infantry civ, otherwise they added the plate barding armor before. Plate Mail Armor becomes worthy after the supplies was introduced, this is the opinion of a part of players for a long time and I just stated it.

@CactusSteak2171

Kataparuto Trebs are too much fun to use to be scrapped from the game, not to mention they are stronger than BBC (bulkier and deal more damage)

And then I am rare to see it in high-level game. The bombard cannons do not need castles, so removing kataparuto would not decrease the siege ability, not to mention the historical background of kataparuto is totally fake. I told that it is hard to be true, I just hope it and you guys do not need to be such serious.

[JonOli12]

@UpmostRook9474

You can compare the data of the archers with the bracer and the crossbowmen without the bracer. The former is just 5 HP less and 6 sec more for training than later.

The difference is 1 Attack, 1 Range, and 5 HP, which is a huge downgrade, since Crossbowman essentially adds another Fletching + 5 HP.

Unless you want Kamandaran to essentially compensate this somehow, and have everyonne cry that Trash Archers is still OP, I would just let everything remain as it is.

Also, 8 (35 to 27) seconds training time is a lot.

[UpmostRook9474]

@JonOli12

The difference is 1 Attack, 1 Range, and 5 HP, which is a huge downgrade, since Crossbowman essentially adds another Fletching + 5 HP.

the archers with the bracer:
30 HP, 4+4=8 attack, 4+3=7 range, 100% after thumb ring, 35 secs for training.

the crossbowmen without the bracer:
35 HP, 5+3=8 attack, 5+2=7 range, 100% after thumb ring, 27 secs for training.

So only 5 HP less and 8 secs more, not to mention the bracer make the cavalry archer and the castle better.

@JonOli12

Unless you want Kamandaran to essentially compensate this somehow, and have everyonne cry that Trash Archers is still OP

Why can it change only after everyone complain? In my opinion, Kamandaran did not have to even increase the cost if this adjustment were accepted.

@JonOli12

Also, 8 (35 to 27) seconds training time is a lot.

You can build one more range archery, not to mention the 8 secs will become 5.28 secs after conscription. It is not a big problem.

[JonOli12]

@UpmostRook9474

Why can it change only after everyone complain? In my opinion, Kamandaran did not have to even increase the cost if this adjustment were accepted.

Because Archers die much faster to Skirmishers, than Crossbowmen do, by virtue of 5 less HP. Not to mention that Bracer is more expensive than Crossbowman, and almost no one uses Persian Cavalry Archers anyway (too costly to upgrade for a unit without any bonus, just like Saracen CAs).

Your suggestion would have to see Kamandaran Archers cost between 30 to 45 Wood, for them to be balanced. At that point, you would hear even more players asking for the Tech to be revised.

@UpmostRook9474

You can build one more range archery, not to mention the 8 secs will become 5.28 secs after conscription. It is not a big problem.

You can also build one more Archery Range to counter Kamandaran Archer with Skirmishers, so I do not see why you would want to touch this issue.

[UpmostRook9474]

@JonOli12

Because Archers die much faster to Skirmishers, than Crossbowmen do, by virtue of 5 less HP. Not to mention that Bracer is more expensive than Crossbowman, and almost no one uses Persian Cavalry Archers anyway (too costly to upgrade for a unit without any bonus, just like Saracen CAs).

So please use your cavalry to counter the skirmishers. One essential of the game is counter and counter. I think killing archers is skirmishers’ duty and the crossbowmen dying slower only means it just need one more shot, not too much different in the late game.

And everyone research the bracer finally no matter which civ if it is available. Researching it is not only for Kamandaran archers, so the cost is not the point.

Then nobody use Persians cavalry archers BECAUSE it has no bracer. If it has, it would be full upgraded like Japanese cavalry archers and may be a useful strategy.

@JonOli12

You can also build one more Archery Range to counter Kamandaran Archer with Skirmishers, so I do not see why you would want to touch this issue.

That mean the 5.28 more sec is not worth care.

[JonOli12]

@UpmostRook9474

That mean the 5.28 more sec is not worth care

It is as much worth caring (8 seconds, not 5.38, do the mat), as you just building an extra Archery Ramge and making Skirmishers to counter Kamandaran Crossbows.

@UpmostRook9474

Then nobody use Persians cavalry archers BECAUSE it has no bracer. If it has, it would be full upgraded like Japanese cavalry archers and may be a useful strategy.

Japanese and Saracens have FU CAs, still no one uses them, because the HCA upgrade is too costly for a unit you have no bonii for.

[Geojak92]

i litteraly just watched a team game of viper playing saracens cav archers.

they arent that bad and people do use it, even thought this want not a tournament.

[CactusSteak2171]

@UpmostRook9474

You can compare the data of the archers with the bracer and the crossbowmen without the bracer. The former is just 5 HP less and 6 sec more for training than later

It would mean that Persian would no longer be able to go for mass Xbows in Castle, and that would be a HUGE nerf.

@UpmostRook9474

I just want to remind the development team that they are worth some adjustment. How to adjust is not my business.

I’m not asking you to figure out how, I’m telling you it’s not realistically possible.

@UpmostRook9474

At the beginning of introducing the steppe lancers, one of the most popular topic is giving them to Mongols and Huns too

Mongols had a direct connection with Cuman and Tatars (invading them) while the Huns were long gone by then.

@UpmostRook9474

Huns lancers would be the only one that pure full upgraded without any bonus.

They wouldn’t be produced 20% faster at all of course.

@UpmostRook9474

Adding bloodline or blast furnace or both of them make the paladin, camel and halberdiers more decent

Lacking both of these techs is what is supposed to leave both cheaper halbs and camels balanced.

@UpmostRook9474

Cataphracts doesn’t need since their strength

Well, Cataphracts would be definitely left behind if you made the Paladin even better in comparison.

@UpmostRook9474

It focus on defense so siege rams and bombard cannons may not be needed after the buff.

Those 2 units are good at killing enemy archers and siege from the safety of your fortifications. Definitely fits the defensive theme.

@UpmostRook9474

I just hope it and you guys do not need to be such serious

Well, this thread is about the changes we want to see in the next update…

[JonOli12]

@Geojak92

i litteraly just watched a team game of viper playing saracens cav archers.

they arent that bad and people do use it, even thought this want not a tournament

They are FU, so they are good, but not for 1v1. You only use CAs in 1v1, if they have a bonus to them, and the game is always only balanced around 1v1.

[JonOli12]

@UpmostRook9474

You can compare the data of the archers with the bracer and the crossbowmen without the bracer. The former is just 5 HP less and 8 sec more for training than later. It will solve the problem that somebody said Kamandaran too strong and give Persians full upgraded cavalry archers.

It will make Kamandaran too weak, since Archers are not worth 60 Wood, even as Trash units.
This would make Kamandaran another Boiling Oil, an invisible UT that none used.

[Geojak92]

Here is what i would like to see to make the portuguese more viable before wood runs out and feitoria become feasible. just posting my proposed changes without too much reasoning for now.

First 3 points i see as essential to fix this civ:

1. organ gun reduced frame delay 6-> 5? (Crossbows have 5 for comparrision)
   This is to fix the graphic glitch of smoke but no bullet fired if moved in that instance.

2. caravel +5% movespeed (still less than longboats and berbers galleons), and creation time from 36s (same as galleons) to 32 for non elite and 28 for elite.

3. The Gunpowder UT seems to have no effect at all on cannon galleons and BBT. A slight buff to the bullet speeds to make the effect atleast noticable feels not unreasonable.

Now some possible buffs for their lategame which only one option could be picked from:

4a. gold cost reduction applied to upgrades as well (everything but bbt). This would be really good in imp, not bad in castle and still uselesse early. Streghens their character as a late game civ

4b. Elite Organ Gun gets +1 Range

4c. Organ guns main bullet gets a mini aoe damage without friendly fire

4d. Add SO to differentiate from Italians, Spanish, turks, since the portuguese army suffers in trash wars, becuase their organ guns is not great against groups of enemy contrarz to its description

Feel free to disagree with me. One last point, according the the last statistic from aoestats before de, the portuguese was one of the worst 5 civs in winrate. All the other worst 5 civs have recent major buffs. Portuguese only feitoria rates which do not help much outside of arena

[Geojak92]

why is the game only balanced to 1v1???

[UpmostRook9474]

@JonOli12

It is as much worth caring (8 seconds, not 5.38, do the mat), as you just building an extra Archery Ramge and making Skirmishers to counter Kamandaran Crossbows.

Why do you be persistent on using Kamandaran crossbowmen or archers to face skirmishers? Where is your cavalry? Use it.

@JonOli12

Japanese and Saracens have FU CAs, still no one uses them, because the HCA upgrade is too costly for a unit you have no bonii for.

That only means you watch less high-level match. Even it shows more strength in team game than in 1v1 game, it should be still regarded useful.

@JonOli12

It will make Kamandaran too weak, since Archers are not worth 60 Wood, even as Trash units.
This would make Kamandaran another Boiling Oil, an invisible UT that none used.

So? 45 wood? Every data could be discussed and be adjusted, so please don’t be so sure.

@CactusSteak2171

They wouldn’t be produced 20% faster at all of course.

I admit that I forgot this bonus, however, it may not be the reason to refuse it.
People said Mongols should not have lancers but it was happened, so I never say it should not be possible. Actually, if there is the forth lancer civ, the Huns is the most possible than others.

@CactusSteak2171

Well, this thread is about the changes we want to see in the next update…

Those are what I want to see and I just stated them, no matter they are possible or not, no matter how you think about them.

[JonOli12]

Because all RTS games are, since that is the baseline tournament mode, and the most played in both MP and SP alike. 1v1 is the classic and most popular rtype of game ever.

This is why sports are 1v1 or 1 Team vs 1 Team.

It is just human nature.

[JonOli12]

@UpmostRook9474

Why do you be persistent on using Kamandaran crossbowmen or archers to face skirmishers? Where is your cavalry? Use it.

Because Skirmisher are the unit taht they will most be compared to, as a Trash Ranged unit, and will be their counter.

Almost no one with a lick of balance sense would take your position in this issue.