Balance suggestions for January, or February, or whenever it'll be

[DoctBaghi]

@IICumanicus

Okay, fine. But still they have Heavy Cavalry Archers. Maybe they don’t have Bloodlines but with units in front of Cavalry Archers HP and Armour doesn’t important.

PT also gives a +2 atk bonus vs spear line units, and that is important.

@IICumanicus

I said Mayans has +15% all resources last longer. Bad version doesn’t make sense, if you increase it to +20%, it will be too strong.

Ahhh ok, sorry I didn’t understand it that way.

Well, consider that just +15% is a vill for each boar for free, plus about 2 with 4 deers. Considering their insane discount on infantry I didn’t want to give them too much food.

@Sylux1000

I do not like this. It does not help in feudal, where they suck badly

There isn’t a way to help them in feudal that either won’t break water balance (buff or nerf too much) or that it matters.

The only thing that would work is +1PA, and this is an old suggestion that was never implemented.

@Sylux1000

This can work. Instead of boosting just archers, it helps the whole eco. An alternative eco bonus is military buildings cost -50w.

The complete rebalance of Age up/dock is an option, but a complicated one… as for cheaper buildings, it would be a buff on water inevitably…

@Sylux1000

Another bonus coming to my mind is that all the Italian units attack 10% faster. You can exclude navy if the dock discount remain untouched. Otherwise I would nerf the dock discount to 40%.

Italians already suffer from firm being generic. This bonus would make them better for sure (it could be even 15/20%) but it wouldn’t solve its biggest problem, that all its military is super generic.

That’s why I prefer even a weaker bonus but that gives more powerful to a specific section of their military. In my opinion, italians should be more specialized.

@CactusSteak2171

I missed this and this is NOT fine. Even if it was not a TB and there was no boosting shenanigans with relics, it would be a very powerful bonus just because it’s the only way to boost monastery working rate in the whole game. And since well, it is a TB and there are boosting shenanigans, it’s even more reasons not to buff it.

As I said, some are just ideas that I find worth considering and talking about, not all should be taken with the same seriousness.

This is an example, something that I’m onestly not sure myself it would be a good idea.

@CactusSteak2171

And maybe it has to do with the fact both civs have champions+an anti infantry archer, and those two units have different roles than just being fancy champion substitutes.

Maybe, or maybe they simply forget. A lot of other civs that have both FU buffed champs and HC also have a bonus damage vs eagles on their infantry UU, even karambits, and malays have arguably the best counter to eagles…

@CactusSteak2171

But why give them an archer armour upgrade?

Because their ranges are trash, they the second worse skirms and that hurts them a lot.
And arambai would need a tech more, so it’s a little nerf for one of the strongest strategies…

@CactusSteak2171

I wish people would use this as an opportunity to use normal CA as Cuman more instead of whining.

Cumans CA without bracer… I don’t think so…

@CactusSteak2171

Well it’s still a free powerspike, free 150 f and free stable time.

Yeah it’s better than nothing, but still cumans could use that in my opinion…

@CactusSteak2171

Shotels? Full siege workshop+UT?

Shotels are fine, but they aren’t seen that much… Still I don’t think that 300f and 300g more would break them…

It could be even just 100/150/200, to differentiate a bit between ages…

@CactusSteak2171

Well yes but actually no since they don’t need 150f and stable time anymore to catch up xbows. And their hussar spam is kinda overrated nowadays, people should stop believing they are Hera.

Meh, in castle age with multiple stable, stable time isn’t a big deal, and 150f in castle isn’t either.

As for hussars spam, I may not be hera (I mean… thanks for nothing, I already knew that… lol…) but still it’s a powerful spam…

@CactusSteak2171

That’s 19% on normal BEs. Almost as much as the Frank bonus.

Yeah except that on a unit that already have tons of HP having 50 more isn’t really that important, but again it’s not something that it’s really necessarily…

@Sylux1000

Do they need a further nerf?

If their UU is buffed yes.

@Sylux1000

That is fine but I feel it is difficult to implement

Maybe yes, it’s the only problem…

@MatCauthon3

yes lets make goths even more 1 dimensional.

Better early eco actually make them more flexible in the early game. And if you want to let them keep conscription then we could nerf perfusion.

@MatCauthon3

don’t think this is needed for them.

Couldn’t hurt either…

@MatCauthon3

do Khmer really need another nerf? they aren’t an S tier civ anymore.

If Ball.E were to be buffed, a nerf on the rest of the cavalry may compensate.

@MatCauthon3

Turks are now a mid tier civ and don’t need nerfs.

Maybe… I’m not sold on this one yet…

I don’t onestly like to see scouts dive in so much under TC fire in dark and feudal, but it’s also true that after the first days of the last patch release I saw this more and more rarely, so maybe it’s not that OP.

Still, it’s something woth considering in my opinion

[CheshireWig3203]

@MatCauthon3

Turks are now a mid tier civ and don’t need nerfs.

Turks are still so trash

[Sylux1000]

@DoctBaghi

In my opinion, italians should be more specialized.

I am not sure if this is the design of the civ. They are supposed to be an archer civ, but they have decent cavalry compared to Britons, Ethiopians or even Vietnamese.

I am very fine with +1PA for archers and skyrms. But there are civs with the same specialization having a better bonus (range, rof, reduced cost…).

In this sense, 10% faster attack makes Italian open tech tree to shine, since they do everything above average.

Note: 10% faster attack would still push them towards archers, since archers are the units benefiting more from this kind of bonus.

[MatCauthon3]

@DoctBaghi

Better early eco actually make them more flexible in the early game. And if you want to let them keep conscription then we could nerf perfusion.

why does it need to be nerfed? they aren’t even a good civ.

@CheshireWig3203

Turks are still so trash

either way, point is they don’t need bloody nerfs right now.

[CactusSteak2171]

@DoctBaghi

Maybe, or maybe they simply forget

No they didn’t. The kamayuk is anti-cav and has +1 range, and the condo is anto-gunpowder, they both have no business being champ variations like woads, TK&co.

@DoctBaghi

they the second worse skirms and that hurts them a lot.

They are better than Turks, and are better than than Celts/Franks (bracer>armour) Also is it me or arambai would end up with +1 MA this way?

@DoctBaghi

Cumans CA without bracer… I don’t think so…

I wish people will someday realise Cuman kipchaks lack bracer too…

@DoctBaghi

cumans could use that in my opinion…

They are underrated.

@DoctBaghi

Still I don’t think that 300f and 300g more would break them…

They are a decent civ, it’s not like they are underplayed or anything.

@DoctBaghi

in castle age with multiple stable, stable time isn’t a big deal, and 150f in castle isn’t either

You shouldn’t have enough stables for that when starting in castle age, and 150 f is enough for one elephant, which can be huge.

@DoctBaghi

but still it’s a powerful spam…

And that’s the part where I remind you stone walls exist. They help against eagles and hussars from all civs, they are great.

@DoctBaghi

Yeah except that on a unit that already have tons of HP having 50 more isn’t really that important

That’s one more pike hit and countless more arrows/knight hits.

[phoenix1089]

@DoctBaghi

Cumans mercenaries now allows you allies to train elite kipchaks but paying for them, at the castles (similar to condos), though they cost 50g (instead of 35g, wood stay at 60) for the allies, to offset the fact that some civ, other than having bracer, may have other bonuses or UT that makes them stronger (and to emphasize the mercenaries theme).

Looks good so far… But what about allowing allies to train FU elite kipchak(and thus the price hike). So instead of being a very civ dependent situational unit, it actually becomes a potentially usable unit for any ally? Instead of having a potentially OP magyar kipchak or a completely useless goth(celt probably worse?) kipchak.

[MatCauthon3]

@DoctBaghi

If Ball.E were to be buffed, a nerf on the rest of the cavalry may compensate.

so lets buff a meme unit very slightly and in compensation were gonna nerf one of the last shreds of 1v1 power they have? totally fair trade off man.

how about we gut Italians dock discounts to 20% but in compensation give them elite skirmisher upgrade for free. that’s about what i feel an equivalent to what you are proposing.

[CactusSteak2171]

well besides the fact PT ballista eles is an absurd concept (like how can it apply to a ballista?) it would probs turn it into a better ele archer. Which isn’t much by itself, but it might become too good in the rare situations it’s useful late-game.

[phoenix1089]

@DoctBaghi

Madrasah changed in monks cost 66% less.

Is this a typo? 33 gold for a monk??

[CactusSteak2171]

Well kipchaks have never really been a late-game unit (november/december 2019 don’t count) so for other CA civs kipchaks will just be frail and pack the punch of a water gun when compared to HCA/Mangudai. On the contrary, giving kipchaks with Cuman upgrades to Celts, Teuton & co would patch a huge hole in their tech tree. Imo it should just unlock elite kipchaks for the player’s ally and if it’s not a tech for super tryhard teamgames it’s fine, it would be fun for relaxed games at least.

[phoenix1089]

@Sylux1000

This can work but it will not change the unit problem…

Having cheaper of anything will increase its flood potential /reduce the cost of losses… So even if archers are still countering them you can shove enough at the enemy that they either get overwhelmed or distracted enough that you can spend res on something else like rams or trebs rekking the base

But imo this mainly applies to 1v1 where resources /unit cost means more…

But on that note i think 15g samurai would be OP in the wrong situations. (vs goths)

[phoenix1089]

@CactusSteak2171

so for other CA civs kipchaks will just be frail and pack the punch of a water gun when compared to HCA/Mangudai

Frail - turks?

Water gun - magyar 8 range kipchak? There’s a wee difference between a 6 range and a 8 range unit…

They will likely not replace HCA but they sure as Heck can supplement them vs the right combinations (involving siege or high PA)

[CactusSteak2171]

Well in both cases they are worse than those civ’s HCA. For some reason people insist kipchaks are a straight upgrade to CA, but being better against siege or costing less gold to produce and upgrade aren’t good upsides at all in TG, especially if the downside is only being able to only tickle paladins, camels and eles.

[DoctBaghi]

@CactusSteak2171

No they didn’t. The kamayuk is anti-cav and has +1 range, and the condo is anto-gunpowder, they both have no business being champ variations like woads, TK&co.

Well, pikes, gbets, huskarls and Co also don’t have any business in being champ variations but all of them have a bonus damage vs eagles.

@Sylux1000

In this sense, 10% faster attack makes Italian open tech tree to shine, since they do everything above average.

Usually, a civ with an open tech tree is a bad civ unless it has a super powerful UU (like chinese or the old spanish…). Since this isn’t the case of italians, I don’t think that they need a bonus to make its tech tree shine.

But that just a personal opinion…

@MatCauthon3

why does it need to be nerfed? they aren’t even a good civ.

Because every one hate play against them early one (because of the laming) and super late (because of the spam).

The problem is that they also are a bad civ in between those 2 moments…

@CactusSteak2171

They are better than Turks, and are better than than Celts/Franks (bracer>armour) Also is it me or arambai would end up with +1 MA this way?

For skirms both bracer and armor are important, one it’s not enough…

And no, arambai would get less bas PA, so they would be fine.

@CactusSteak2171

I wish people will someday realise Cuman kipchaks lack bracer too…

But they have less frame delay and more damage output, so they can compesate for that. Cumans CA just train faster, and that don’t compensate for less range and atk.

@CactusSteak2171

[…] And that’s the part where I remind you stone walls exist. […]

Really? Luckily you reminded me that…

But jokes apart, yeah I know, but still all they need is a woodline chopped too much…

@CactusSteak2171

That’s one more pike hit and countless more arrows/knight hits.

I’m not denying that it has its use, but is it good? However I also increased the cost, not just the HP.

@phoenix1089

Looks good so far… But what about allowing allies to train FU elite kipchak(and thus the price hike). So instead of being a very civ dependent situational unit, it actually becomes a potentially usable unit for any ally? Instead of having a potentially OP magyar kipchak or a completely useless goth(celt probably worse?) kipchak.

Yeah it could work too.

@MatCauthon3

so lets buff a meme unit very slightly and in compensation were gonna nerf one of the last shreds of 1v1 power they have? totally fair trade off man.

Hussars would still be more than decent, and back by one of the best eco bonus.

[CactusSteak2171]

@DoctBaghi

Well, pikes, gbets, huskarls and Co also don’t have any business in being champ variations but all of them have a bonus damage vs eagles.

The spear line has a small bonus against eagles so that eagles aren’t better than champs as a trash killer. Gbetos and throwing axemen have +1 probs to compensate for their lower damage. But you’re onto something with huskarls, if they didn’t have anti-eagle damage the Goth/Mayan matchup would be less lopsided.

@DoctBaghi

But they have less frame delay and more damage output,

The frame delay has been nerfed, and their damage output is massively lower. No CA-type unit besides war wagons fire slower than them, they only have 4/5 attack (CA/HCA is 6/7) and the additional arrows are innacurate so they do’nt make up for the damage difference.

@DoctBaghi

But jokes apart, yeah I know, but still all they need is a woodline chopped too much…

No more, no less than other civs. I had the occasion to see people pick Khmer, spam hussars late game and do really nothing else, then just lose. Some people think it’s a good reason to do something about it, for me it’s a good reason not to, let people fall in the trap and realize brainless spam is overrated.

@DoctBaghi

I’m not denying that it has its use, but is it good?

Yes it is, and Viets would be worse with buffed elephants but nerfed knights and CA.

[DoctBaghi]

@CactusSteak2171

The spear line has a small bonus against eagles so that eagles aren’t better than champs as a trash killer. Gbetos and throwing axemen have +1 probs to compensate for their lower damage.

I’m fact I asked for +1, not +8 like champs.

@CactusSteak2171

The frame delay has been nerfed, and their damage output is massively lower. No CA-type unit besides war wagons fire slower than them, they only have 4/5 attack (CA/HCA is 6/7) and the additional arrows are innacurate so they do’nt make up for the damage difference.

It’s still less than CA, the same as the mangudai. And with more arrows they deal more damage, especially towards high PA unit, such as rams.

[MatCauthon3]

@DoctBaghi

Because every one hate play against them early one (because of the laming) and super late (because of the spam).

so because people don’t like them you’re just going to make them a garbage civ? makes absolute sense. you take away from their late game, you take away from their non infantry play, and you take away from their early game.
what are goths left with? even more 1 dimensional infantry spam but its WORSE because now they can’t do it as fast. you try balancing around EVERYONE and you’re gonna end up with some civs being garbage no matter what you do, and some being UBER at the top level.

nerfing a civ because people don’t like to play against them is terrible way to approach balance.

Chinese are hard to master and that makes their winrate low. should we buff them because of this? you’re literally doing the opposite to goths. NERFING THE CRAP OUT OF THEM because they are brain dead easy to play and People QQ about it because they don’t know how to play against them?

i don’t see you nerfing Incans despite all the QQ about that. i don’t see you gutting Franks because how brain dead easy they are. why do goths get gutted completely?

@DoctBaghi

The problem is that they also are a bad civ in between those 2 moments…

and your change isn’t going to do anything for that. except make them bad all around.

@DoctBaghi

Hussars would still be more than decent, and back by one of the best eco bonus.

meanwhile slav hussar and malian light cavalry are still better and we aren’t touching those.

[CactusSteak2171]

@DoctBaghi

I’m fact I asked for +1, not +8 like champs.

Well I can see what are the reasons those other units have +1 against eagles. Condos? There is barely any. Kamayuk? There are none at all, why do you want to make a counter cav unit that costs gold against an enemy meso player anyway while you have 2 true eagle counters?

@DoctBaghi

And with more arrows they deal more damage

I told you the bonus arrows are innacurate, and it’s ruined by the slower firing rate. The only reason kipchaks work against rams is because they have that hidden 0 melee attack on their arrows that hit their negative melee armour. I wouldn’t try to play it smart against scorps/onagers with kipchaks because with their low HP the slightest mistake can end in a catastrophe.

[AllergicTable49]

Berbers

Quite nice! though doesnt really change much, Camels by design are the least gold-worthy unit to make in the Post-Imp no gold era, that’s when regen come to play as a very useful feature.

Burmese

By giving them the second archer armor you sand away their uniqueness, I dont like these kind of changes, however I do like reducing Arambai range! It’s solid!

Byzantines

They indeed deserve the town patrol!
No idea why partian tactics though, their civ bonus list is endless already.

Chinese

Nice one, CKN are too cheap on gold for some reason.

Cumans

You turned Cumans to the perfect yet single dimensioned slinging civ, Mercenaries is a bad tech to begin with, the civ is unique enough to have a normal tech.

Ethiopians

You’ve made a radical power spike in Castle Age, they were already so strong upon reaching xbows, that’s quite odd.

Franks

Interesting, Franks definetely need a nerf. This is one way to do it. (However I dont like the second suggested nerf, that’s another sand-down)

Goths

I like the fact they lose Conscription! Very nice.

Huns

First, you damage the uniqueness of Keshiks, Secondly you made such a big room for a potential abuse, buildings unlike units are idle.

Incas

Interesting yet minor.

Indians

Again you sand down the uniqueness of the civ by giving them something that they didnt have almost exclusively isntead of finding an elegant and smart way to buff them. They dont need Knights.
They dont need Elephants, you may do an historical justice, but this is a strategy game, there must be a civ with no knight-like unit that isn’t a meso. plus they have Elephant Archer.

Italians

I like Condos getting more damage vs. Eagles, they deserve it, since there is no point making the other Unique Unit against Meso civs.
However the other bonuses just turn them into a generic Archer civ, while this civ has a lot more to offer than just archers.

Japanese

That’s exactly how developers approach a bad unused Unique Unit, they choose the easiest way which is to just do a massive gold discount, it has no reason behind it, the unit has a design-failure, most popular UU are Cav-Archer of some sort, including Plumes or Conqs, which makes Samurais hopeless agaisnt these.
I would give Samurais extra armor vs UU damage. Or something like that, focus on functioning rather than price.

Khmer

You officially killed Ballista Elephants, now people can just make skirms against it, this is almost my most favorite Unique Unit, the whole idea was that this unit had no traditional counter.
Khmer just need a little nerf to their farmers and they’re fine.

Magyar

This is a huge eco buff, which they didnt need, not every civ deserve an eco bonus, especially not those who have a perfect late game, having both FU Arbs, and FU Paladins, on top of the most deadly gold efficient composition of Huszars + CA with 1 more range and damage.

Mayans

By the point you have a Castle up you’re not that scared of Mangos, plus you are probably few mins away of Imp anyways, where Bracer is the savior.
Bad replacement, however I strongly agree that the old/current Obsidian is awful!

Mongols

Interesting change to Nomads

Persians

Solid overall, yet I would try to find a way to nerf their water-abilities, they’re top 1 pick on hybrid map.

Saracens

Again making a UU cheaper gold wise is the easiest form of balance, try harder, Im sure we can find some brilliant ways to make Mamelukes attractive again.
Regarding the Archers vs. Buildings, it’s quite nice, though I would make it flat +2, their Feudal Age is really lacking unless you abuse the market, and we dont want a civ to be this single dimensioned.

Slavs

Nice, though +6 is a bit too much considering how fast a group of monks heal each other.

Spanish

That’s what I like to see, instead of sanding down the uniqueness, you did the opposite here, defining the civ by making their unique bonus stronger, I like it very much.
However the trash bonus is too OP, they already have a Blacksmith bonus.

Tatars

Devs really ruined Tatars I gotta admit.
Your ideas are nice, though not having TB on one of the few civs that can justify going for CA is not that good.

Vietnamese

The hardest one to balance, their Battle Elephants are not relevant, such a sad civ, and sadly Im not sure your idea make any change, BE would still be dead.
Plus Paper Money is a tragic idea by the Devs, should be eliminated.

Overall I like some of your ideas man.

[MatCauthon3]

@AllergicTable49

I like the fact they lose Conscription! Very nice.

yes, totally a great way to make a 1 dimensional underpowered civ even worse.